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Would you report this?

98 replies

AmIThough · 12/09/2019 07:20

Would you report someone you know for benefit fraud?

I'm stuck in a bit of a moral dilemma - I hate seeing people abuse the system.

Just wondered what the general consensus was.

OP posts:
FoldenHoard · 13/09/2019 10:41

I've often wondered what bullshit smells of 🙄

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 10:43

Sorry . Actual FACT . ! Sorry if it's unpalatable to hear..

If you like you can ask any question you like of Benefit Investigations. If you 'smell bullshit' . I have been on here for many years and nc frequently because of my job.. as MNHQ can verify. !

FoldenHoard · 13/09/2019 10:51

MNHQ can't verify anything apart from the e-mail you've used to sign up.

yet if you pitch up at your interview and tell the assessor that you are 'housebound' by agoraphobia.. (with NO actual medical evidence and yet have miraculously managed to attend the assessment ) and therefore cannot get out , have severe anxiety (again no medical evidence) and require help and encouragement to do almost every daily task.. then BINGO you get the full amount.

And yes, that reads like absolute bullshit 🤷

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 11:10

MNHQ have a list of the user names associated to the email. That is how they are able to say 'OP has been a regular poster for many years , we have no concerns etc'....

Call it bullshit if you like but if you REALLY don't believe me - rather than not like what I am telling you - from a point of three decades of experience - then please report me.

Venger · 13/09/2019 11:15

Sorry . Actual FACT . ! Sorry if it's unpalatable to hear..

I've worked in claimant compliance, DH still does.

Still reeks of bullshit.

FoldenHoard · 13/09/2019 11:16

I'm aware of that, MNHQ will be able to verify I've been here for around 6 years myself, can't see them having any concerns about me either..

Still means nought.

JanMeyer · 13/09/2019 11:35

Almost all of whom show a tenacity with the system (reconsiderations, appeals even tribunal) that would be far and above the abilities of the average GENUINE mental health sufferer. This is, in my opinion quite wrong.

So what, do you think mentally ill people are incapable of thinking and standing up for themselves? Almost like they're helpless little children who couldn't possibly challenge a bullshit decision made by the DWP? Being mentally ill doesn't render you incapable of thinking you know. But nice to know you think it's wrong that disabled people can and do advocate for themselves. Would you rather people just crawl off into the corner and die?

yet if you pitch up at your interview and tell the assessor that you are 'housebound' by agoraphobia.. (with NO actual medical evidence and yet have miraculously managed to attend the assessment ) and therefore cannot get out , have severe anxiety (again no medical evidence) and require help and encouragement to do almost every daily task.. then BINGO you get the full amount.

You don't get anything without proof, and even having medical evidence doesn't mean you'll get anything. As I and many other autistic people know from bitter experience. Though in your eyes I suppose you think we're all faking it, because by your logic being able to appeal and go to a tribunal proves we aren't disabled. That's some nice fucked up logic you have there.

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 14:01

To address the first point

So what, do you think mentally ill people are incapable of thinking and standing up for themselves? Almost like they're helpless little children who couldn't possibly challenge a bullshit decision made by the DWP?

Don't be so ridiculous. I have not said anything of the sort .. but what I AM saying is that many people with MH problems, find the process extremely frustrating, unfair and just plain exhausting. (As do those with physical illnesses) but MH issues are often (but not always ) particularly challenging when trying to battle a system... and In MY many many years in benefit investigation often come across people who SHOULD be claiming PIP/DLA but are not - because the system is so difficult to negotiate. This appears to affect people with MH issues far more than physical. There seems to be little understanding of MH by the PIP assessors and it is a lottery as to who gets it. With fraudsters seeming to 'know the ropes' . I rarely have allegations in regard to physical illness and symptoms because these are MUCH harder to fake.

You don't get anything without proof,

Sorry. Again this is incorrect. The first part of a PIP investigation is to read through the customers self assessment application and then to read the assessors report. The assessment is made on ALL manner of criteria . The 'evidence' required to get a successful claim is not reliant on medical proof. It looks at amongst other things ;

The customers demeanour .
Eye contact and interaction with the assessor.
Physical ability within the waiting room and on the walk from the waiting room to the assessment room.
Interaction and ability to respond to any person accompanying the applicant.
Positive speech patterns .
Wether or not the applicant has interaction with medical practitioners.

(This is important, as NOT having interaction is NOT necessarily negative - if applicant is able to convince the assessor that there anxiety around medical staff is so extreme as to make the lack of interaction believable and commensurate with the illness claimed)

The assessor will also look at medication and how that relates to the illnesses suffered by the patient .
However , no medication is NOT necessarily a negative . For many reasons.
Anxiety around seeng doctors,
Anxiety around taking medication
Lack of language skills to seek the required help,
Lack of knowledge or help to access health care
OR
Fraud.

It is my job to uncover the latter .

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 14:09

VENGER then if you work in compliance why would you 'smell bullshit' . As you well know , a large proportion of benefit allegations are referred from compliance..
The referrals from the National Benefit Fraud Hotline are sifted in order of severity to Compliance, Area Fraud , then SOC. !

Venger · 13/09/2019 14:11

VENGER then if you work in compliance why would you 'smell bullshit'

I smell it in the phrasing you use, the Daily Mail-esque comments around benefit fraud, and your disabilist remarks relating to mental illness and phobias.

HTH.

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 14:32

'Daily Mail-esque phrases ? No , sorry I'm (and always have been ) a guardian reader. !

I am at a complete loss as to understand your gripe with my comments about DLA/PIP Fraud. You give the strong impression of someone who believes such a thing exists ? And you worked in compliance ?? Are you seriously suggesting it doesn't exist ?

Or do you just not believe that I am a Fraud Investigator? If it's the latter then ask me a question that you as a compliance officer and me as a FI would know - but not the general public or some internet troll peddling 'bullshit' !

JanMeyer · 13/09/2019 15:14

The first part of a PIP investigation is to read through the customers self assessment application and then to read the assessors report.

Ah yes, those wonderful assessors reports that contain all manner of bullshit and are usually full of lies. According to such assessors making eye contact is proof you don't have autism. Going to a mainstream school is proof you don't have autism. Owning a mobile phone is proof you don't have autism. You get the picture. Thankfully the tribunal was not nearly as stupid as the assessor I had.

Tell you what, I'll give a fuck about the possibility of someone committing fraud when the government does something about the absurd lies their assessors from Capita and ATOS writes, when they do something about the fact that decision makers treat those laughable reports as fact when they have your actual medical information which they ignore.

The assessor will also look at medication and how that relates to the illnesses suffered by the patient .
However , no medication is NOT necessarily a negative.

This is bullshit, do you have any idea how many autistic people been marked down because "you aren't receiving treatment or taking medication"
Never mind autism is not a disease and there's no fucking treatments but whatever, according to the liars paid by the DWP that's proof you're not really autistic apparently.

The customers demeanour .
Eye contact and interaction with the assessor

Also known as if you can smile you're fine.
The problem with everything you've written is you seem to think assessors are all good people who tell the truth, it's extremely naive, and given the number of people going to tribunal and winning obviously that's not the case.

After my tribunal I got an apology from the DWP, I don't want an apology. I want them TO TELL THE TRUTH. Tell me, if you do really work for the DWP, why do assessors and decision makers feel like they can lie about disabled people with impunity?

Mackerz · 13/09/2019 15:26

Yes, we all pay for that fraud.

They aren’t going to get sanctioned because you report them. The DWP will look at the information, check it against the claim and decide whether it is worth investigating.

If they decide it is worth investigating, they then need to collect evidence before they can stop the claim, enforce repayment or prosecute.

Graphista · 13/09/2019 15:28

Gardai thank you.

Graphista · 13/09/2019 15:29

I'm currently dealing with the move from DLA to pip and it's causing me immense stress and anxiety and quite frankly could not have come at a worse time for a variety of reasons.

TheHouseInTheForest - IF genuine YOUR post is even MORE disgusting than OP'S - but I'm glad you posted it! Why?!

Because now SOME of those mners reading who have never been through the benefits process or dealt with the BIGOTED and DISCRIMINATORY attitudes of far too many who work in the dwp will KNOW the kind of utter crap those of us who do have to deal with it are being faced with - so for that I thank you!

The idea that being mentally ill means someone is mentally incompetent is SO FUCKING OFFENSIVE! It's positively Victorian thinking! Just because I am mentally ill DOES NOT mean I am incapable of being tenacious, determined or assertive. In fact if anything having ocd probably makes me more so because I get fixated on details and I have a strong sense of justice anyway. PLUS BECAUSE of how we are treated by many we have NO CHOICE but to be tenacious and advocate strongly for ourselves and pursue appeals etc because if we didn't we'd be completely screwed! It's a damn sight harder when suffering from depression, anxiety etc and when dealing with being on meds that make our concentration and memory suffer (I pretty much have reminders for EVERYTHING on my phone and write down everything I even MIGHT need to remember) but that doesn't mean it's not possible! I am very lucky that I happen to be someone who has been blessed with the skills of articulacy, being able to formulate arguments well etc and having been raised by (otherwise very dysfunctional) parents who are also strong characters skilled in debate and assertiveness (even if not necessarily with each other). Such attitudes make our lives so much harder and contribute to our illnesses. But people like you don't care about that!

Your understanding (?!?) of agoraphobia is also appalling! I'm currently experiencing my 4th bout of being completely housebound by it, but even when I am well enough to leave my home I can still be at a mostly housebound phase where I can only leave with LOTS of planning, preparation and support. At other times I can leave with a bit less planning etc and when I'm at the most well I've managed in over 10 years I can manage to go to several TRUSTED places outside of home but cannot cope with going to new places or places that I don't "trust" (mainly because my agoraphobia is down to my OCD so if a place is "dirty" or "contaminated" in my mind - and it doesn't take much for a place to become not trusted).

I can't cope on buses, mostly use taxis, sometimes can use trains depending on a number of factors (weather, reason for journey, where I'm going, who's with me etc)

There's a lot of misunderstanding/misrepresentation of agoraphobia and you are perpetuating that.

Graphista · 13/09/2019 15:30

A person attending an assessment (which they may well have been pressured to do because NOT going = NO MONEY TO LIVE ON) may well have only been able to do so with a LOT of planning and preparation put in place. Just because they somehow have been BRAVE enough to attend does NOT mean the rest of the time they are not completely housebound.

I'd also LOVE to know how the FUCK someone is supposed to be able to prove they're housebound? Are you expecting their dr to electronically tag them or something (I'm fucking giving these knobs ideas aren't I?!balls!)

As for "they were all over SM" how do you know those events were during the period they were claiming to be unwell? I post stuff on sm of times when I was well enough to do X y z but that's not what's happening now!

Ok if investigated and actually found to be claiming fraudulently fair enough but I am not convinced that is always done fairly or reasonably, especially in the current climate.

"It suddenly smells of bullshit in here." Yes I'm somewhat suspicious myself but still felt the post should be addressed.

"I have been on here for many years and nc frequently because of my job" because you're embarrassed of it? Good!

But as has been said all mnhq could positively verify is your email address and your being a frequent name changer and long term user - none of which is meaningful in this debate.

Graphista · 13/09/2019 15:30

"Don't be so ridiculous. I have not said anything of the sort ." Yes you bloody did!!

"Almost all of whom show a tenacity with the system (reconsiderations, appeals even tribunal) that would be far and above the abilities of the average GENUINE mental health sufferer" YOUR WORDS

"With fraudsters seeming to 'know the ropes'" that MAY be true but you know who else "knows the ropes"?? Those of us who've been dealing with it for MANY years and have been advised by those working within it, either by dwp people or those who work in welfare advice roles for charities etc. I've been dealing with benefits generally for 16 years and sickness benefits particularly for 13 for myself and 6 for dd - that's a LOT of experience (which I'd rather I hadn't needed to acquire, I'd much rather be healthy and working).

It's INCREDIBLY hard to successfully claim for MH reasons and a significant amount of supporting evidence IS required.

I'm worried sick as currently my mental health team have left me in limbo without a keyworker! NOT because I don't need one NOT because I don't want one or won't/can't engage with the service but because the last one basically fucked up and they're trying desperately to cover their arses! But THEIR dept is the one that holds the most information on me and my health and have had the most interaction with me so I've had to put their contact details on the form even though I'm extremely nervous they'll fuck that up too!

Graphista · 13/09/2019 15:31

"I rarely have allegations in regard to physical illness and symptoms because these are MUCH harder to fake."

1 find that very hard to believe generally given the fact that I ALSO have a physical disability which I have had people question and doubt and grill me about - inc people who are barely acquaintances and who know nothing about me and it's none of their business! I also have family/friends who use mobility aids inc wheelchairs BUT because they don't ALWAYS need to use them they've also had accusations and nasty comments!

2 because if you really did do the job you claim to you'd get just as many reports on physical side as mental.

JanMeyer - sorry you've been through that. My friend with cerebral palsy was asked "how you caught it?" My relative with type 1 diabetes and who is very slim and takes as good care of here self as she is able and follows all medical instruction was told she "clearly needed to live a healthier lifestyle and lay off the sweets" my friend with a barely verbal child with aspergers was told "but he can talk so maybe they (the specialists!) have got it wrong and he doesn't have aspergers"

They are Fucking idiots most of the assessors!

Honest to fuck! At least this thread might be educational to mners reading who don't what a bloody incompetent, callous mess the dwp is!

JanMeyer · 13/09/2019 16:17

Honest to fuck! At least this thread might be educational to mners reading who don't what a bloody incompetent, callous mess the dwp is!.

Agreed, if one good thing comes out of the ignorance they posted then at least that's something. I hope your transfer to PIP goes well.

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 16:48

Sorry it's unpalatable to hear... but yes I'm afraid there is a LOT of fraud in the PIP /DLA system . I am sorry if that upsets anyone and that you all seem to believe that I am accusing ANYONE that claims to be guilty of fraud by association. That is far from the case.

There are also some very bizarre statements like

because if you really did do the job you claim to you'd get just as many reports on physical side as mental.

Well I do do the job I do - and I do not get anything like the number of allegations of fraud related to physical illness as mental illness.

It's just a fact.
I am talking about ALLEGATIONS not actual prosecution. Surely you can see how more common an allegation of fraud would be for MH. ?

You only have to live next to the wrong person, who somehow finds out you get a disability benefit , who feels hard done by and 'knows that you are not ill' (but doesn't know you have a debilitating mental illness) for them to contact the fraud line...

Why are you all so angry at the mention of fraud in the system . Do you honestly not believe it exists ? Or do you not care what people are doing with YOUR taxes ?

This is one of the bigger cases I have prosecuted , it's from 2012 but it's the only one online that doesn't mention my name.

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/355781/Gang-get-19-years-for-4m-benefit-scam

Venger · 13/09/2019 16:51

I believe fraud exists, I know it exists, I just dont believe you're involved with investigating it.

Thehouseintheforest · 13/09/2019 17:12

Ok then ... what do you want to know . You say you were in compliance.. what is the name of the course a fraud investigation officer needs to complete before taking in their first investigation.

What is a RIP ?
What grade are ;
Compliance officers ?
Area fraud officers ?
SOC officers ?

What is a SOC officer ?

Venger · 13/09/2019 17:21

Why are you so hell bent on convincing me you are who you say you are? Why does it matter to you?

Graphista · 13/09/2019 17:32

No we're not saying fraud doesn't exist.

We ARE saying that how allegations are handled are a disgrace in terms of people's benefits being suspended while they're investigated BEFORE there's any proof of guilt.

We ARE saying its a very small amount of fraud (relatively speaking) that occurs and that perpetuating the idea that it's rife is WRONG!

We ARE saying that tax evasion which is a FAR bigger problem is woefully under-reported and prosecuted.

We ARE saying that comments like yours about the "genuinely mentally ill" wouldn't be able to advocate for themselves and see through appeals etc IS UTTER BOLLOCKS!

We ARE saying that there are people within the dwp (and associated organisations) who are JUST AS unscrupulous and deceitful as fraudsters BUT who are rarely punished for THEIR actions!

We ARE saying that there is clear massive issues with people in dwp (and associated organisations) being prejudiced regarding certain conditions (which IF you genuinely are what you claim to be - you actually proved!)

THAT is what we are saying

NO system is perfect and impermeable to unscrupulous people BUT trying to make the welfare system be perfect is instead causing great hardship and difficulties for genuine claimants.

ProhibitedRodent · 13/09/2019 17:33

@Graphista
but when a report is made what happens is that basically all money is stopped

Incorrect. You're initially invited to a meeting to give your response to allegations. Money is not stopped unless they don't believe your response. Please don't exaggerate for dramatic effect

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