Would you report this?

[AmIThough]

Would you report someone you know for benefit fraud?

I'm stuck in a bit of a moral dilemma - I hate seeing people abuse the system.

Just wondered what the general consensus was.

@JanMeyer you're getting very offended and I'm sorry about that. I meant no offence in anything I said.

I have a lot of close family members with a lot of debilitating illnesses, mental health problems, learning difficulties, etc. I know and understand how the system works.

I know that this person shouldn't really be entitled to it, because they've told me so. I'm not making assumptions.
They're very open about the fact that they're continuing to claim their benefits because they don't know what job they want to do, and when they find a job they want they'll only take it if it makes them better off than their benefits do.

I know it's really hard to get a job with a disability. I know that some days a person who looks perfectly 'ok' can wake up and not be able to get out of bed. I know that this can be physical or mental. I know that employers don't make allowances (as a general rule) for this.

I'm not naive. I know.

As I said, my intention is not to offend, or minimise, anything or anyone.
But when a person looks you straight in the eyes and openly admits that they're taking the piss out of the system that supports some of the most vulnerable people in society, it can be frustrating. I'm sure you understand that.

You can receive PIP and work full time receiving disability benefits doesn’t stop a person from working.

Claiming disability is completely separate to working, it doesn't affect it at all and mirroring what pps have said PIP (which if they're over 16 is what they'll be getting) is incredibly hard to get. And if they have MH issues which is what you've hinted at, can you really be sure it's not some kind of 'showing off' in a way or minimising their needs in a way to feel normal?

I say that because I get disability for DD. Eventually (after years of not) claimed on the repeated advice of professionals when not claiming was becoming detrimental to her. The forms are utterly gut wrenching, but because I don't see her that way, I don't see all the extra care needs, the hours it takes to bath her, to calm her, that it takes a lot of effort on both our parts to communicate, as being worthy of payment, I see her as my little perfect girl who I cherish and would do it all for in a heartbeat. Your friend is likely minimising because that's their normal. And the reason they gave for awarding it DD was the medical records and professional reports. That is what they look at so don't think bravado or their normal justifies you reporting them on your opinion and making their life even harder, because it doesn't. Leave well alone.

And the fact they're 'claiming benefits' has nothing to do with the disability element. That's entirely a separate issue and isn't affected by them working or not working.

The more people caught, the more money for the genuine folk.

Definitely not, I'm no grass. Someone would have to commit gross abuse for me to report them.

AmIThough, the fact that this person has been open with you means that she trusts you to keep your mouth shut. Don't disillusion her.

The more people caught, the more money for the genuine folk.

Yeah, because that's really how it works. How thick are people to believe that crap?

@AmIThough You didn't answer my question, are you talking about PIP or ESA? Because it ticks me off when people say "someone is claiming disability" without seeming to know the difference.

@Rachelover60 you're right - this was why I had the moral dilemma. I won't.

"They could easily work if they wanted to." Please DO TELL when and where you qualified as a dr specialising in their condition and when you assessed them with full knowledge of their medical history?

No?

Then butt out!

"but have to go through annual reviews of their benefits because other people choose to cheat the system." THATS NOT WHY! It's the excuse that's given but it's not the real reason!

Butt out!

"it appears that physical disabilities are a lot harder to claim for, which seems strange to me as they're easier to prove.
I guess nobody wants to be seen as discriminatory towards those who struggle with their mental health." Are you for real?!

I have BOTH serious MH issues AND a physical disability - much easier to deal with the physical aspect benefits wise than the MH.

My physical disability means there are many things I can only do on good days (and it's possible to have several consecutively and then not for ages) or with LOTS of preparation (physio exercises, bath AND painkillers) and which then leave me kiboshed the next day...

I'm in the process of doing my transfer from DLA to pip claim now and the way it works is whether you're capable of doing X on a bad day with no additional help basically. It's a bit more complex than that but to summarise. And that's what I was told by dwp person!

MH can fluctuate MASSIVELY and you have NO IDEA what someone may need to do to be able to do a task.

Eg I have severe ocd but I still put my own bins out weekly (mainly because I don't trust anyone else to do it "right" that's part of the problem!) - it takes 8 hours! All the preparation, rituals (before, during and after) PLUS the physical limitations which make some of the OCD parts worse. So yea "on paper" I "can" put my bins out but it's a hell of a palava and mentally and physically I'm fucked for the next 2 days!

"Benefits are now so obscenely low that I can understand people “over egging the pudding” when claiming" not how it works AT ALL

"I can when the person is very open and honest when they're not talking to decision makers!" No! Because bravado, personal pride and misunderstood sarcasm comes into it too!

"Please be assured I am not minimising in any way anybody's struggles." Yes you are! The person you are giving serious consideration to majorly fucking up their life when you have sod all expertise!

"you're getting very offended and I'm sorry about that. I meant no offence in anything I said." Bull! Even THINKING what you are is offensive!

@Graphista this wasn't an attack on anybody and I apologise if I have caused you any offence.

Stop being disingenuous. The furious back-pedalling is frankly embarrassing.

You DID attack in your mind the person you started the op about AND all of us who struggle daily just to live AND have to defend our lives to people like you - a number of whom work in dwp!

I will accept your apology IF you would do 2 things for me:

1 Accept your thinking on this is wrong

2 Genuinely take the time to educate yourself on what is happening to the sick and disabled in this country who ARE being attacked daily - bureaucratically as we're discussing here but ALSO verbally and PHYSICALLY.

Austerity measures have directly lead to unnecessary/premature deaths of claimants and this govt is doing its utmost to hide that fact.

There's a coroners organisation been trying to get a FOI request honoured for the last (iirc) 2-3 years - they are asking for the official stats on deaths directly related to benefits decisions - so far (last I checked) they have been stonewalled at every turn.

That's right, people are DYING Because of politicians and bureaucrats holding the same views as you started this thread with.

I personally have had APPALLING harassment and vicious comments because I'm a "benefit scrounger" from people who know bugger all about me! I've been "reported" as a "fraudulent claimant" which I am not nor ever have been - but when a report is made what happens is that basically all money is stopped - the person reported is to all intents and purposes considered guilty until proven (repeatedly and stringently) innocent

It can take many months to disentangle the mess caused and for the claimant to get back on track if they ever do.

At this point you're probably thinking "geez it was just a post on mn"

But words have meaning and they have consequences.

Graphista . I know its shit to only be able to offer you a flower emo.

I have wondered about death/suicide rates as a direct result of decisions made by the agencies who repeatedly act illegally against the most vulnerable in society, who are often the least able to fight back. It sucks, and they deserve nothing less than prison for it. Stealing peoples lives

They are the scum, not the few (by comparison) who do actually manage to defraud benefits, they're just common criminals.

The headline is always isnt it, the benefit fraudsters.

Why isn't the headline pointing out societies killers?

What happens when an FOI is denied???

They've (last I checked on the whole farce) very cleverly not denied the FOI, they've done things like asked for it to be worded differently, asked for clearer parameters, said they're checking with lawyers etc - delaying tactics basically

It IS shit and it's very damaging to the most vulnerable in our society.

On other threads I've been accused of exaggerating, scaremongering... I wish I were!

And a no deal brexit will make things SO MUCH worse. We would likely see a significant number of deaths then.

Not only "the headline is always...the benefit fraudsters"

The headline is VERY RARELY "tax evaders prosecuted" even though tax evasion is a far bigger problem.

I guess nobody wants to be seen as discriminatory towards those who struggle with their mental health

Its really not.

I suffer from GAD, for the last week I have managed to get my son to school and pick him up again. Its a fucking massive achievement and I am in no doubt it will be held against me when my assessment comes back up.

Despite the fact I spend the time I am home in a ball and trying to convince my very active DS that he doesn't want to go to the park on Saturday because I have run out of all my spoons

In your instance no, its not benefit fraud because they have had medical assessments backed up with evidence. Not every disability is visible.

You could be reporting someone who is correctly receiving a disability benefit, it isn't all about what you can or can't do that counts, you may see the person walk past you but you don't see that person in pain or the fact that the walk you saw wears them out so much they are in bed for the rest of the day or that the act of going outside terrifies them & causes severe mental distress. Not all disabilities are visible, & only less than 1% of claimed benefits are fraudulent claims. Reporting someone could mean that the person claiming would not be able to pay for therapy, pay their Bill's, pay for extra food, heating or water to manage their condition. Remember one day you may walk a mile in their shoes.

I know that this person shouldn't really be entitled to it, because they've told me so. I'm not making assumptions.
They're very open about the fact that they're continuing to claim their benefits because they don't know what job they want to do, and when they find a job they want they'll only take it if it makes them better off than their benefits do.

I’d be very wary of that. I have a relative who is all “oh yes I could get a job if I wanted” because it’s better for his mental health for him to pretend to himself that his life now is his choice than face the fact that he couldn’t get a job, or at least he wouldn’t keep a job. Same as he pretends he likes staying in a lot and being “addicted” to tv and jigsaws rather than admitting his physical limitations.

It’s very hard to get disability benefits, the fraud rate is tiny.

As someone who is on benefits due to mental health problems this makes my blood run cold.

I fought long and hard for a year to get my sickness benefits.

To the outside world and neighbours I might seem 'normal' but they don't know what's going on inside my head constantly. The battles I have with myself to do the simplest of tasks. The insomnia, the panic attacks, the medication, the tears, the fear.

I worry I will get reported one day. I can't go through the assessment again, I was suicidal throughout.

Think very cafe fully about what you could potentially be doing to this person.

Hows it affect your life?

OP, please don't. You have no idea what is really going on in this person's life. Have some compassion.

Just wanted to say brilliant post @Graphista at 1.08 today, you summed it up so well.

OP, perhaps you are just incredibly naive but this subject has been beaten to death here, the information you gave is scant and encourages posters to indulge in the usual “report in a heartbeat” response, pandering to the people who think you need to be crawling up a street to get DLA.

Crack on, report away if you feel like it, you don’t need approval from anyone, unless it was all made up in the first place ?

As a benefit fraud investigator for over 30 years - you would not believe the level of fraud that still exists within PIP/DLA ... despite it becoming much much harder to claim.
There seems to be a loophole when it comes to mental health , that those with a desire to commit fraud exploit with impunity . Almost all of whom show a tenacity with the system (reconsiderations, appeals even tribunal) that would be far and above the abilities of the average GENUINE mental health sufferer. This is, in my opinion quite wrong.

The new system of assessment seems to have little time for genuine physical ailments , little or no understanding of good days and bad , again for physical illness , finding people with quite obvious long term disability and pain to be 'fit for work' ..

yet if you pitch up at your interview and tell the assessor that you are 'housebound' by agoraphobia.. (with NO actual medical evidence and yet have miraculously managed to attend the assessment ) and therefore cannot get out , have severe anxiety (again no medical evidence) and require help and encouragement to do almost every daily task.. then BINGO you get the full amount.

Luckily OP these cases are fairly easy to investigate. You simply make a referral with as much detail as possible - anonymously if you like , via the Benefit Fraud Hotline (look up on the web) The case will be allocated and a surveillance team assigned to look at the suspects lifestyle. The surveillance is covert. The suspect will never know they were being looked at unless the surveillance shows a lifestyle incompatible with their declared illness/disability.

Surveillance may also mean desk-based investigations. You would not believe how stupid benefit fraudsters can be. I have prosecuted hundreds of people who just can't resist social media. Cases that spring to mind are ; High rate DLA for mobility, and care . (Virtually unable to walk and needing day and night care) Posted on FB waterskiing during a 3 week holiday in Florida.. and the 'agoraphobic' mentioned above. - All over Instagram 'working out at a gym' jumping in and out of helicopters and fast cars in Europe .. 'living the life' ..

Anyone saying 'mind your own business ' is beyond bizarre . Why do you want the money YOU earn to go to fraudsters. It is EXACTLY your business.

As a benefit fraud investigator for over 30 years

It suddenly smells of bullshit in here.

if you pitch up at your interview and tell the assessor that you are 'housebound' by agoraphobia.. (with NO actual medical evidence and yet have miraculously managed to attend the assessment ) and therefore cannot get out , have severe anxiety (again no medical evidence) and require help and encouragement to do almost every daily task.. then BINGO you get the full amount.

Ah. There it is.

yet if you pitch up at your interview and tell the assessor that you are 'housebound' by agoraphobia.. (with NO actual medical evidence and yet have miraculously managed to attend the assessment ) and therefore cannot get out , have severe anxiety (again no medical evidence) and require help and encouragement to do almost every daily task.. then BINGO you get the full amount.

Utter bullwank