Uniform is supposed to equal the DC out......but of course it doesn't

[JoceHark]

At DC's school everyone knows who has money and who doesn't. First it was the designer coats, the school then cracked down and said no brand names on coats.

Then the bags.

Now it's the belts. Kids wearing designer logo'd belts to school (no current ban in place).

Also a bizarre rule which says girls can wear one single ring (plain) and boys can wear a signet ring. Firstly I know plenty of women who still wear a signet ring (seems sexist that only boys can at school), but the signet rings they are wearing are bling'd to all hell and back.

Should we just accept that school uniform is actually a load of bollocks.

It doesn't prepare them for work, how many office staff do you know who wear a tie and blazer to work everyday? And how many of them are women?

It's a huge bill for parents

It creates a wall between parents and the school and kids and the school

It's just an unnecessary cause of stress all round and hasn't been proven to have any benefit on education. We seem to just cling on to it as a British thing which has always been done

Math - so you’ve noticed that Brits are class/wealth/brand/fashion-obsessed/keeping up with the Joneses society but don’t think that uniform can be a leveller for that particular school, even in some minor way?

Like I said, we clearly disagree with one another.

but don’t think that uniform can be a leveller for that particular school, even in some minor way?

No, ElizaPancakes, and encouraging the fallacy that equality exists by promoting a 'leveler' is not a positive.

Equality doesn't exist, and people need to see that and either accept it or work for change.

The idea that you can use uniform as a means of dealing with pernicious jealousy or toxic showoff-ing on the personal level instead of addressing the reasons why students and parents are so obsessed by appearance and so ready to take out their insecurities on others is a lazy, unimaginative policy.

Using a 'leveler' instead of requiring students to take personal responsibility for their attitude to others is nonsense.

I’m not saying any of that at all though am I.

What is the function of a 'leveler' then Eliza?

We are in Canada and my kids did not ever wear school uniforms. We live in a mixed income area, so there are kids with quite wealthy parents, kids living in subsidized housing and everything in between. Kids at their schools never got bullied or teased for what they were wearing, and I don’t recall there ever being drama in our mornings about what to wear. We are average to low income - my kids have friends who are in every income bracket. None of them CARE that their friends are wealthier or poorer. Nor what their classmates wear to school.

I th8nk uniform is a good idea and, for the most part, effective and economic.

I dont agree with the strict rulings simply because they dont have the resources to be consistent on punishment, but kids will always push boundaries of some sort so it may as well be uniform based and know children will be safely dressed. Otherwise it would be flip flops or something silly.

And I dont agree its like work. Thats soooooo outdated. Even in my doctors surgery, half the GPs dress down. Certainly in many offices they dont wear uniform now.

Did I actually say though that I think uniform is the be all and end all and that none of those other things should happen? No I did not.

Don’t be so bloody patronising. I’m hiding this thread because your sanctimonious attitude is pissing me off.

But as I’ve said at least twice now - we disagree. Get over it. I’m not going to change my mind that non-uniform at school is such a smashing idea because funds are diverted into student workshops and the like. Or because you talk down to me.

I finished secondary school a few years ago. It was often kids from more deprived backgrounds teasing other working class (and even those better off) for not wearing the right brands or cool school shoes...

But overall there is less teasing with uniform than with own clothes

Well I personally think school uniforms are great. As a poor (and also uncool) kid I used dread non-uniform days at school. I was so humiliated and bullied by other kids. If every day had been like that school would have been hell for me. With a uniform I could be fairly anonymous/similar to my friends. As for the price I'm lucky with my kids. They just need red top/grey trousers/skirt etc so I can pick up uniform cheaply at Asda or Morrisons. I don't think parents should have to buy uniforms with school logos.

The thing is, though, that when every day is a non-uniform day then there just isn't the pressure that there is for a mufti day in a school with uniform. As PP have said, in practice the pupils settle down to pretty standard fare of jeans and T-shirt/jumper or similar.

@SallyWD. That's the problem. At primary, it was Ok because it was bog standard grey trousers available in all big supermarkets . Secondary schools seem to want something more specific available from only one, very overpriced shop

Haven't read the full thread, but

I'm scandinavian, in my country we haven't had school uniforms ever (or atleast the past 100 years). I dont think you would wish for it.

It puts a lot of pressure on how much clothes you have (change every day and often twice a day), it shows if you are with the ìn` crowd dresswise, how expensive you clothes are etc. It is super expensive to maintain such a wardrobe and the washing is enomous.

The amount of bulling from not dressing the same, signaling less money, less understanding of being smart. Not dressing the way the alpha of the class dresses, is huge.

I can totally understand that your school uniforms are expensive, and that it is a drag to wear them day in and day out. But i have always seen it as a kind of freedom. Like men wearing suits, instead of being forced to having x number of dresses, skirts etc. im sure it is because i have never experienced uniforms, but from the outside it looks ... liberating (lacking a better word).

And no i havent been bullied because of it, but i have seen children and their parents from less well off families, really struggle because they didn't have the luxury of being laid back about it, feeling they had to do bigger and better.

Just my experience .

The idea that you can use uniform as a means of dealing with pernicious jealousy or toxic showoff-ing on the personal level instead of addressing the reasons why students and parents are so obsessed by appearance and so ready to take out their insecurities on others is a lazy, unimaginative policy.

Totally agree with this (and as someone who has lived and sent children to school in both the US and the UK I hope I'm allowed to have an opinion).

I also notice some other differences between UK schools and US schools. Our US schools allow students to eat and drink in class, to go on holiday in term time, to go to the toilet when they need to, and generally are much more permissive IME.

The students don't behave worse as a result - they behave better. They respond well to being trusted and treated as individuals rather than being forced to comply with rules that are set up to manage the worst behaviour.

I find it interesting seeing the quite fundamental differences between how students are treated.

I think instead of changing uniform, we need more emphasis on teaching children that it really does not matter what someone else wears etc

drsausage I have seen the same positive behaviour in US students.

It's a matter of relentless work on internal locus of control vs relying on external locus.

It's a very"i'm alright,Jack" attitude on here.

97%ish of kids would be ok picking their own clothes etc and everybody on here's kids would be included in that. It's that tiny percentage of kids who can't afford or isn't allowed the "cool" clothes that would be affected.
It might not be outright bullying but it's going to affect them in some way. Those posters saying everyone looks the same anyway, aren't in touch with the realities of life as a teenager when confidence and the need to fit in are such huge issues for many teens.

Just because your child would be ok and like it, doesn't mean all kids do.

My DD3s school recently introduced a much stricter and 'smarter' uniform so now the kids all want kanken bags and DM shoes. Many kids can't afford these items so the uniform becomes meaningless in terms of equality.

Mine were non uniform for primary and sixth form, in schools with a huge range of wealth / poverty.

They were all (experience if 3 in total) excellent schools and the lack of uniform was never a problem. Everyone seemed relaxed and normal, and not brand obsessed. The middle class kids (like mine!) recognised brands, labels and designer goods as a marketing con, and more of them were concerned about environmental factors and conditions in sweatshops , and wore lots of charity shop and creatively upcycled clothes.

Or just ordinary jeans and sweatshirts.

And lots did not look cool, or attempt to look cool.

Our values are out of whack. It is a lot to expect matching polyester to sort out serious problems.

...uniform so now the kids all want kanken bags and DM shoes. Many kids can't afford these items so the uniform becomes meaningless in terms of equality.

You are missing the point. The kids want the same shoes. Ok it's £££ shoes.
How would you feel without the uniform and kids wanting designer jeans & t-shirts, as well as the Doc Martin's? Supermarket & next aren't anywhere near good enough.

Kids are sheep, they want to be the same as the crowd. But if the crowd has different budgets and priorities it become a tough life.

I know some schools have band all logos for uniform & sports kit. That is a massive help. No more pressure for YSL or Ralf Lauren shirts etc.

edthebear my point is not about cost it's about the fact that kids will always find a way to appear 'different' or 'cool' so the kids without the £70 bag and the £120 shoes feel exactly the same as they would if there was no uniform and they were in their Asda specials and their peers were in designer gear. It's attitude we need to change and a smart blazer does not address that.

I agree there’s far too much energy spent on the supposed “solution” of policing appearance and not nearly enough time spent on teaching families to be tolerant and kind!!!

Changing attitudes is easier said than done.
They'll always be fashion they'll always be kids who have x brand, and a parent who'll scrimp somewhere else to buy x brand.

As much as I am anti blazers (pointless garments) I'm very much pro uniform. Children like to be the same, they don't want to stand out from the crowd hence your describing kids all forced into the same clothes but they all want the same shoes and bags.

In my experience kids don't give a flying fuck whose parents have money, that's all on the parents, they are the ones who do the comparisons and either wring their hands or gloat.

Uniforms is a good equaliser, you can't remove alll elements of personality op.

And in a corporate environment yes suits are often the dress code. As they are for many companies and roles.

We’re in non uniform US and the kids end up wearing a uniform of sorts anyway as they all dress the same. Even from elementary school it’s just T-shirt’s and shorts/sweatpants with the T-shirt invariably emblazoned with what club they belong in/where they went on holiday/their school team name.

By the time you get to HS, it’s perfectly obvious who are the more monied kids as they’re the ones arriving in their shiny white Jeep instead of taking the bus.