Uniform is supposed to equal the DC out......but of course it doesn't

[JoceHark]

At DC's school everyone knows who has money and who doesn't. First it was the designer coats, the school then cracked down and said no brand names on coats.

Then the bags.

Now it's the belts. Kids wearing designer logo'd belts to school (no current ban in place).

Also a bizarre rule which says girls can wear one single ring (plain) and boys can wear a signet ring. Firstly I know plenty of women who still wear a signet ring (seems sexist that only boys can at school), but the signet rings they are wearing are bling'd to all hell and back.

Should we just accept that school uniform is actually a load of bollocks.

It doesn't prepare them for work, how many office staff do you know who wear a tie and blazer to work everyday? And how many of them are women?

It's a huge bill for parents

It creates a wall between parents and the school and kids and the school

It's just an unnecessary cause of stress all round and hasn't been proven to have any benefit on education. We seem to just cling on to it as a British thing which has always been done

Pontiouspilates ha ha you nailed it, DS looks like a baby-faced hotel manager, I think it’s such a ridiculous look, he hates it too.

I used to hate uniform while at school. As a parent, I prefer it. No deciding what they have to wear everyday. They have about 2 of each of everything so they have a spare and I think it reduces the amount of washing. My dd would get through so many clothes if allowed to wear her own stuff. I do agree that the individual logod stuff can be expensive. Luckily in our town, we have a shop that does factory seconds of supermarket uniforms and the lady who runs it can now even do the logo stuff which is cheaper than the 'official' shop and actually fits better because she does smaller sizes (the official shop's smallest size is huge and swamps year 7s). I usually buy one new item and then pick up a spare from second hand sale of school things. My ds has even been given a couple of jumpers by the school (they end up with piles of lost property). I'm glad their school is just black trousers or skirts you can get anywhere, a polo shirt with house logo and a sweatshirt. I don't see the point of ties especially on girls. I could never understand why I had to wear one when no one does in real life.

"My family had plenty of money, but my parents didn’t really believe in ‘fashionable’ clothes. I used to dread mufti days when everyone would be in cool outfits and I’d be in something ‘pretty but practical’. Uniform equalises more than just financial situation."

Oh yes, I got picked on on mufti days, but it was the days long trips that I dreaded the most. I suppose it might not have been as bad if we were always without uniform though.

"how many office staff do you know who wear a tie and blazer to work everyday? "

Loads. Admittedly, all men, but women have to be in formal wear too.

I hate uniform it adds to my dcs issues though. I have 2 with autism and sensory issues and both hate uniform as it makes them feel very uncomfortable and actually makes hard for them to relax and concentrate propelry.

...I'm also quiet anti blazers. I think they are the most useless pointless garments ever invented.
Yes. So pissed off at DS's school for introducing them. Ugly, impractical and expensive.

Uniforms are good.

It's a safe thing to use for rebellion - without uniform they'd be rebelling by smoking, graffiti etc. With uniform they rebel by doing their tie in a funny way or lacing their shoes weirdly. It's genius.

You've got to buy kids clothes anyway. Uniform works out cheaper per wear. And yes it reduces bullying as it levels out social/physical differences.

My 17 year old is at sixth form. Give me the expense of school uniform any day!!!

The thing is, all over the world schools manage to deal with bullying and rebellions quite happily despite not having uniforms.

without uniform they'd be rebelling by smoking, graffiti etc.

Like they do in Holland, Germany, France... Oh wait - they don't.

Again - are UK kids really that different, that awful, that indecisive? Or do we just think they are, and if so, why do we think that?

We used to have no uniform, but moved house and now have a uniform. No uniform was far and away easier. When kids have to pick their clothes everyday, the novelty soon wears off. Everyone pretty much wore jeans/leggings and hoodies. People mention mufti days as an example of what hell non uniform schools must be, but it's not like that, because it's not having to go all out for a single day. And no short skirts as there is no uniform to rebel against.
It was so much cheaper too, as t shirts last far better than impractical white shirts. Jeans are better in winter etc and it got replaced through out the year. Plus no stupid expensive logoed PE kits.
The only thing we like about uniform are the pockets in the blazer ( which needs frequently replacing as they have to wear it all day) .

it's a safe thing to use for rebellion - without uniform they'd be rebelling by smoking, graffiti

Erm...newsflash they do that in uniform too!

Gwenhwyfar
"how many office staff do you know who wear a tie and blazer to work everyday? "

Loads. Admittedly, all men, but women have to be in formal wear too.

There are a few problems with the formal shirt, blazer and tie style of uniform for all:

Uniform allegedly prepares students for the world of work yet the usual style still presents 'the world of work' as one where the normal worker will be wearing traditional male attire. Is this world of work one where girls can visualise themselves in a few years?

In schools, girls are dressed as boys in skirts, perpetuating the idea that the more feminine attire that many girls opt for outside of school isn't acceptable or appropriate in a serious environment - in general, it promotes the notion that the feminine just doesn't belong in an academic or serious environment.

Conversely, it perpetuates the idea that intellectual effort and serious work is masculine, and that schools and workplaces are masculine turf where women and girls are tolerated as long as they keep the feminine element under wraps.

It's a toxic message.

without uniform they'd be rebelling by smoking, graffiti etc.

Nope.

Kids who are going to do all of that are going to do it regardless of uniform status. They do it because of unhappiness at home, lack of supervision, immaturity, and other problems.

With uniform they rebel by doing their tie in a funny way or lacing their shoes weirdly. It's genius.

And wasting the time of teachers and all the rest of the students because once you have a uniform you have to spend time dealing with all the enforcement necessary.

*mathanxiety

It’s not a perfect system but the kid who wears Asda jeans and primark trainers every day will be noticed more

Only if the rest of the children are a bunch of little shits.*

Well, yeah.

Teach your children to be humble and not jealous instead. Show them the joys of other things they do have, which is still richer than many children in different countries

What a beautiful vision of the world you have. Sadly, teenagers can be little cunts no matter how they were brought up. And quite a few of us don’t only live near great secondary school, but also the ones where children there are on their last chance.

I don’t agree with expensive ridiculous uniforms. I do agree with some.

Another toxic effect is that uniform and the often public enforcement of uniform standards in schools promotes the concept that lack of conformity to the norm is a bad thing.

We wring our hands at bullying but don't bat an eye when a teacher publicly remarks on attire, calls on a student to unfold the band of her skirt, calls out a student for excessive makeup, or points out that a student's trousers are too short. Teachers are empowered to comment on uniform infractions that are caused by a desire to appear feminine, by normal growth causing clothing to appear too small, and even by poverty - no washing machine or can't afford washing machine repairs, parents working two or three jobs and have no time to wash clothing except once a week, parents unable to afford correct shoes or to replace items that have holes in them.

We run the risk of conditioning girls in particular to accept that others have the right to comment on their appearance and enforce a norm.

When uniform infractions on the part of girls tend to be mostly infractions where a girl has tried to make a uniform skirt shorter or has used lipstick, eye shadow, etc, we are penalising the feminine, and it would be interesting to see if girls receive more reprimands for uniform infractions than boys in secondary schools. The policing of girls' attire is an issue that has many contributing elements and many bad effects on girls.

There is an ongoing debate in the US about girls being asked to 'cover up' as tank tops and shorts that are shorter than knee length, etc are considered by some rather uptight teachers to be a distraction for boys (suggesting that some teachers think girls are responsible for boys' behaviour, and that all of their students are heterosexual). The basic mindset of someone who thinks that is ok is very troubling.

No issues with the uniform in our school. It's a specific colour. Plain black shoes. Tracksuit is specific colour. Plain black trainers. No brands allowed. It suits us. So much easier than casual clothes.

ElizaPancakes

Teach your children to be humble and not jealous instead. Show them the joys of other things they do have, which is still richer than many children in different countries
What a beautiful vision of the world you have.
I was quoting another poster here - and if you don't think this is possible then I am sad for you and for Britain.

Sadly, teenagers can be little cunts no matter how they were brought up. And quite a few of us don’t only live near great secondary school, but also the ones where children there are on their last chance.

My DCs went to a US high school of 3,500 students, where there is a huge range of ability, income, and issues among the intake.

There is a section of the school where those who can't be mainstreamed because of the scale of their socio-emotional or psychological issues, or even juvenile criminal history, plus those serving in-school detentions and exclusions are educated. (The school does not expel anyone permanently unless they are sent to official juvenile detention and their continued presence in school is a matter taken out of the school's hands by the courts. Students can serve a period of in-school isolation instead. So someone who comes to school carrying a knife having been heard making threats will be sent to in-school isolation, and will be able to do online coursework supervised by teachers. Someone caught selling prohibited substances will be dealt with by the police primarily but will in most cases end up in the school within a school).
This section comprises about 250-300 students, some of whom would be in juvenile detention in the UK.

The school employs social workers who investigate family circumstances if students have signs of issues, and hold group and individual therapy/counseling sessions for anyone referred. If students come from a home where police have been called for any reason, the police liaise with the school social workers and students are invited to take part in whatever level of counseling they feel they need. A DV call or a call resulting in the arrest of anyone in a home will result in students being offered help.

The school also contracts out to an outside agency any students who need a much smaller environment, one on one input from teachers, and more support than the social workers can provide. There are about 90-100 students currently attending a certain programme daily, away from the school.

I disagree that teenagers can be little cunts regardless of how they are brought up. The vast majority of students who get into trouble have predictable conditions in their home lives, family dynamics, or in their parents' mindset, including the attitude of their parents to school, teachers, police, and Sticking It To The Man.

The majority of students are nice, ordinary kids brought up by normal parents doing the best they can but crucially, they are backed up by a culture that promotes politeness and rubbing along together as major virtues, in schools that do not rely on items of clothing as a way of achieving the aim of engaged, polite, mannerly teens.

Instead of forcing parents to pay for uniforms, the school asks taxpayers to pay for effective ways of providing meaningful interventions in school so that nobody's time (or money) is wasted.

Ok I get it math - there’s definitely no bullying at schools that you have experience of.

Also - I didn’t realise you were going to ‘not all teenagers’ me - I thought I was clear I wasn’t talking about every single teen out there but clearly not.

Both the U.K. and the USA have their problems - but there’s less than 900 under 18s in custody in the U.K. vs [[https://www.aclu.org/issues/juvenile-justice/youth-incarceration/americas-addiction-juvenile-incarceration-state-state 60k in the USA - 0.001% and 0.018% of the population respectively.

So, please don’t try and make out that education and funding and all the rest of it doesn’t vary completely wildly from school to school, even in your area which is clearly not a deprived area.

And no - I don’t think it’s possible for every single person in the U.K. to be the bastion of virtue because people are different, different parents have different values.

But let’s agree to disagree as clearly you’ve never lived in the UK and I’ve never lived in the USA. And this is completely derailing the conversation from the actual question - I disagree with OP and you do not.

If both countries experience bullying despite different uniform policies then maybe uniforms are not the cure all that UK school administrators believe them to be?

I have lived in the UK btw. I found it a very class/wealth/brand/fashion-obsessed/keeping up with the Joneses society. And yes, I think there is a lot of jealousy of others. It's something that hits you straight in the face if you come from elsewhere.

Yes, educational funding varies wildly in the US, but it varies wildly in the UK too. Are articles of clothing supposed to make people in the UK believe that educational equality exists, and that every student gets an equal chance at upward mobility? That because the students at Eton wear a uniform and the students at XYZ Comp wear a uniform both schools will make an equally positive difference in their lives?
At least in the US that fallacy hasn't yet been tried.

It works in mines school, nobody is interested in what anyone else wears really. I've seen some sights too. They just wear what they like and the kids seem to go through personal phases.
Mine was shouted at once when trying to help a parent, they thought they were staff.
There was a swift change in style after that.

I think it's a bit much for primary aged kids to be wearing real shirts, as required in DD's primary school. Secondary school I understand slightly more having an enforced uniform as preparation for adult life... however, teens rebel. And they always will. I went to a Grammar school and as soon as I got into Sixth Form I enjoyed choosing my own outfits everyday. One of my favourites featured a rubber zip up top. Didn't affect my learning ability one iota sitting there dressed in full on goth mode. I tucked my platform boots under my chair like everyone else and cracked on. My A level results reflected this, regardless of how I was dressed while sitting the exams.

Funny thing is, I was bullied in uniform. Right up until I was able to dress how I wanted in sixth form. No matter how outlandish my outfit choices, no one batted an eyelid. Needless to say I've never gone back

It's only a preparation for adult life for boys who are going on to office careers. Girls and all others (the majority) are not being prepared for their future lives by wearing these clothes.

University is the real preparation for the sort of jobs that men require a suit and tie and women to wear 'professional attire', yet university students do not have to wear anything like that.