I think DD is outspoken and rude. DP says I am over-reacting..

[Eastie77]

DD is 6. When she was younger she was very shy and often refused point blank to reply to people when they spoke to her. As she has gotten older she has become a lot more confident and now replies and seems comfortable when spoken to. However with this has come what I feel is a poor attitude while DP thinks it is just 'personality'.

Recent example: we are currently on holiday and DD made friends with a little girl at the beach. I was talking to the girls mum about the return to school next week. The other mum said to DD "I bet you're looking forward to school". DD snapped back "No I'm not actually". The other mum laughed and said she was sure DD would enjoy it once she was back to which DD replied haughtily "How would you know? You don't go to my school". I was mortified. This is just one small example. DD often has to have the last word/answer back when an adult converses with her and often feels as if she has to challenge them. In restaurants she clicks her fingers at waiting staff and says "bring me...". I always instantly tell her off. It doesn't help that in DP's native language (which she speaks) requests are always in the imperative and he has taught her that please and thank you are an "English obsession"

She is fine playing with other children and makes friends easily (I watch her like a hawk to ensure she is not dominating or being rude).

She is not like this at school at all and is very quiet. Her school report was glowing and her teacher said DD is an angel an excellent role model, so polite etc. I thought he had mixed her up with another child tbh. I don't want to suppress her personality but I don't want her to behave like a brat either. I would not have dreamt of speaking to an adult the way I often hear DD addressing people. DP is convinced this is normal behaviour for a developing 6 year old. If you have bothered to read this far, does anyone agree with this?

I'd be interested to know bit more about the finger clicking. Have you told her to get the waiting staff's attention, or does she do it when you're still deciding/waiter already taking your order? How many occasions has she done it?

The play date fiasco rang a bell so I tried to find it. Instead found a swimming lessons thread. Interestingly, you refer to the swim teacher clicking fingers, does that still happen at lessons?

My dad was Italian..its a completely different way of conversing&much more genuine(suits me better )than the 'English manner-obsessed' codified nonsense..incidentally its a peculiarity that the rest of the world doesnt share (outside of Japan possibly)..She sounds fabOP perfectly capable of expressing herself with none of the adult"grease"i suspect you're fearing she lacks ..i would never expect myDC to reply with false platitudes to witheringly patronising adult comments on school..why the notion kids arent entitled to respond authentically?..oh wait,it has to ve a classical'Englishplatitude' maybe teach her to converse far&wide on the weather or apologise endlessly if she's at fault..im sure she'll go down great with people then😂.Just let her be 6 ffs.

I remember an Italian friend telling me that she thought Italian children were the very worst behaved children. Her children were lovely though.

My parents would have killed us for being rude to other people - especially adults and people in restaurants/shops. It’s not cute and if she acted in a way that was considered rude in Italy I’m sure her dad would be pissed of with her - what’s there not to understand there?

Just tell him - if you live here then she will need to play by the rules or she will find it getting nasty when not small and cute.

If she is polite at school, then she is choosing to be rude at other times.

Is dad the factor here?

One thought, OP - do you spend time coaching her on conversational skills? Like actually getting her attention and taking turns speaking/asking questions of the other and suggesting things she might ask or talk about? Conversation is quite a skill and it's easy to fall into the trap of only really communicating with your children to tell them off or ask them to do something and then wonder why your child isn't very good at communicating!

I obviously don't know the details or your situation or relationship but social skills need practice and support, not just correction when she gets it wrong.

I think the rules at school tend to be clear, particularly Reception -Y2. Also time for child to get used to the adults there, who are (usually) experienced with young children.

I found the play date thread,even the child minder has said Dad needs parenting lessons. I'm not sure that DD is just being rude and I think may be social stories etc may help. But DP needs to get on board too as he doesn't sound very willing.

Wow the child minder has said your do needs parenting lessons? Things must be bad for this to be said.

i would never expect myDC to reply with false platitudes to witheringly patronising adult comments on school..why the notion kids arent entitled to respond authentically?

Well you sound totally charmless in any language but carry on telling yourself that it's your cultural superiority What is wrong with asking a child if she's looking forward to school? Lots of children do. It would have been much more patronising to exclude her from the conversation.

@SofiaAmes - to be clear, I do not think the finger clicking is something she picked up in Italy. I'm not blaming Italian culture for that.

As I mentioned, I am dealing with it and she knows the consequences (instant removal from the Pizza restaurant this evening) if there is a repeat.

I don't think all Italians allow their children to misbehave either. I'm just reporting on what I generally see here (where we are staying) and specifically with DP's family. I wouldn't say outright rudeness is tolerated but e.g. DC and her cousins were squirting water on the beach and the water hit a nearby couple. I immediately told them to stop and apologised to the couple. DSIL then allowed her DC to continue squirting the water, annoying people around them. DD was upset that she couldn't continue playing the game. I'm constantly having to explain "Yes I know your cousin can do xyz but we don't allow it because..." My in-laws are great but I will admit I struggle here.

DD's Italian is pretty decent. She actually speaks better French as I am bilingual FR/EN and speak to her a lot in French. She definitely understands she needs to say please / thank you in English more than in Italian and she is perfectly polite at school etc. She never just says "Give me..." to her teacher or childminder.

The issue isn't really around please and thank you though. It is more the borderline or outright rude/'smart' replies to comments and questions from people she meets. I think both her replies to the little girl's mum were rude because I think it's inappropriate for a child to speak to an adult like that. It appears some think I'm crushing her spirit by not allowing her to speak her mind?

Interesting comments re Aspergers. I don't think that is the cause of her behaviour but I posted here when DD was younger about what seemed to be selective mutism and refusal to look people in the eye or reply when spoken to.

The bizarre thing is I know DD is looking forward to school. She loves it. Hasn't missed a day since Reception (now going into Y2).

@SeaSidePebbles - sounds as if your daughter has found a way to skilfully navigate the two cultures, well done

@amandacarnet - yes, childminder has recommended parenting lessons for DP several times. That's a whole different thread. It's very sad.

@CheeseChipsMayo - you sound exactly like DP!!

@StockTakeFucks - it's normal in many cultures (including the one I was raised in) for children to address older adults as Aunty X or Uncle Y as it's considered rude to call adults by their first name. This doesn't mean we are not allowed to have our own thoughts and feelings..

@DobbinsVeil - we removed her from those lessons and booked private lessons but now we have re-enrolled her with the original finger clicking teacher at the council pool as she is much more confident. So maybe you are onto something!!

East is I was also raised in a culture where children do not call adults by their first name. I still find it strange.

I'm Italian but have grown up in England...in Italy I still ask for things in shops in a very English way. I can't help it!

DS has 3 cultures, we live in England, I'm Italian and DH family are from the Phillipines. It's tricky sometimes. I try to be consistent but it means that some relatives think I'm uptight and others think I'm too relaxed.

She sounds a bit like my 7yo,who is angelic at school but currently elsewhere trying to be sassy like the tweens she sees on TV. One thing she really struggles with is the idea that a cheeky response is funny once, but don't do it again. It's pretty clear when she's nervous as she starts using lines from TV and sounding like a little madam - TV people ordering food never say 'please may I have', for example. We're working on it, and on better phrases she can use instead.

She's also been referred for ASD assessment, partly as both older brothers have ASD and the assessors said both parents do too, so, what are the chances she doesn't too, just has coped with school up to now but is now struggling with complex friendship games...

i would never expect myDC to reply with false platitudes to witheringly patronising adult comments on school..why the notion kids arent entitled to respond authentically?

Because small talk is a life skill that OP's DD will need.

I think both her replies to the little girl's mum were rude because I think it's inappropriate for a child to speak to an adult like that. It appears some think I'm crushing her spirit by not allowing her to speak her mind?

It depends. If the problem was that her tone was rude, you might be right. If you'd also object to her saying 'no, I'm not looking forward to school' in a neutral tone, then you're being unfair to her. It isn't rude for a child to disagree with an assumption that an adult has made about her. She shouldn't have to lie.

Her second comment seems blunter, but justifiably. She's expressed her opinion, only to have it laughed at and dismissed, as if this stranger knows better than her how she feels about school. 'How would you know?' isn't exactly polite, but it's true.

"No I'm not actually"

What's rude about that? That's how I answer if people ask me if I'm looking forward to DD or me going back. Actually it varies from "no,not really" , oh God no to fuck no, depending who I'm talking to.

The finger clicking regardless of what country she is rude because she is a child.

It’s bloody rude if you’re an adult too!

What's rude about that? That's how I answer if people ask me if I'm looking forward to DD or me going back. Actually it varies from "no,not really" , oh God no to fuck no, depending who I'm talking to.

I suspect your tone is different, which makes it come across quite differently - but as I said upthread, tone and nuance is really hard (lots of adults aren't great at it, let alone 6 year olds) so I don't think it's terrible that she got it a bit wrong on this occasion, but it is a good opportunity to gently suggest how she could have done it slightly differently (without lying - 'yes I am looking forward to going back' is far from the only polite answer here. For instance, teaching her to answer with positives - 'I'd rather stay here playing!' - would be one option)

I think even little kids know when they are being patronised even if they don't know what patronised means.

In my experience,.small children are indulged in Italy and they are not particularly well behaved in public. There is a high tolerance for noisy behaviour generally. However children tend to grow into affectionate adults and I rarely meet the monosyllabic teenagers in Italy that are common here. After a certain age, children are expected to behave better but they have a much higher tolerance for small children playing up. I find it far more relaxing than the UK but then again my tolerance for noisy children is probably at the Italian end. I find the complaints on here about noisy children playing outside bewildering and those complaining about crying babies are just bonkers. Babies cry

Op. Your child will grow up as a dual national. She will soon learn that there are different expectations in the two countries. When in Italy, let her play an have fun. She will learn soon enough that things are much more fun in Italy for children but not necessarily for adults. I learnt that a long time ago and I am not sure things have changed much.

@NewAccount270219 I agree tone and nuance can make a huge difference.

It also depends if DD was really "snapping" or OP saw it as such because she didn't give the breezy "it's fineeee" type response to a question from an adult.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The girl is not a perfect social norm follower but not a rude ASBO ruffian either.

I have 2 with ASD, 1 who can sound rude.

My observation is a rude sounding oppositional response, can be a combination of feeling put on the spot but also trying to maintain a conversation. Because the back and forth generally goes on longer if there's a contrary view.

I'm not saying the OP's DD has ASD btw, just my experience of a child who can come off as sounding rude. He has learnt to take the edges off.

bumbling - I am at the lower end of the noise threshold. I genuinely don't mind when other small children are noisy but I am sensitive