I think DD is outspoken and rude. DP says I am over-reacting..

[Eastie77]

DD is 6. When she was younger she was very shy and often refused point blank to reply to people when they spoke to her. As she has gotten older she has become a lot more confident and now replies and seems comfortable when spoken to. However with this has come what I feel is a poor attitude while DP thinks it is just 'personality'.

Recent example: we are currently on holiday and DD made friends with a little girl at the beach. I was talking to the girls mum about the return to school next week. The other mum said to DD "I bet you're looking forward to school". DD snapped back "No I'm not actually". The other mum laughed and said she was sure DD would enjoy it once she was back to which DD replied haughtily "How would you know? You don't go to my school". I was mortified. This is just one small example. DD often has to have the last word/answer back when an adult converses with her and often feels as if she has to challenge them. In restaurants she clicks her fingers at waiting staff and says "bring me...". I always instantly tell her off. It doesn't help that in DP's native language (which she speaks) requests are always in the imperative and he has taught her that please and thank you are an "English obsession"

She is fine playing with other children and makes friends easily (I watch her like a hawk to ensure she is not dominating or being rude).

She is not like this at school at all and is very quiet. Her school report was glowing and her teacher said DD is an angel an excellent role model, so polite etc. I thought he had mixed her up with another child tbh. I don't want to suppress her personality but I don't want her to behave like a brat either. I would not have dreamt of speaking to an adult the way I often hear DD addressing people. DP is convinced this is normal behaviour for a developing 6 year old. If you have bothered to read this far, does anyone agree with this?

@NewAccount270219 - yes I agree. I genuinely gasp at the behaviour DD's cousins are allowed to get away with
here. DP's siblings just smile indulgently as their children run amok. They do not go to bed until after midnight and the whole day is exhausting for me as I try to enforce rules my DC see their cousins do not have to obey. DP and his relatives laugh and roll their eyes when I ask the children to e.g. please stop screaming when we are in a public place. My nerves are frazzled.

Sorry to drip feed, we are on holiday in DP's home town which is exacerbating the problem as I described. The friend DD made is English though so I am mortified as her mum must think DD is an absolute brat. Her child is lovely and so polite

The way she talks to the waiters is incredibly rude and should be dealt with.

In your other example, her phrasing isn't the politest, but I can understand the sentiment. Maybe she isn't looking forward to going back to school, and she shouldn't have to agree that she is just because an adult thinks that she should be.

I'd find it odd if someone I didn't know well said (non-sarcastically) to me 'I bet you're looking forward to going back to work' while I was on holiday, even if I liked my job. So your DD has a point! She needs to be allowed to express her genuine feelings, but also to learn ways to do so that don't come across as rude.

The finger clicking regardless of what country she is rude because she is a child.

Not saying please and thank you is acceptable in some cultures. However it's worth teaching your daughter that using her "English manners" will get her a lot further regardless of the country she is in.

When she is an teen she will then need to understand using her Italian mannerisms in certain circumstances is better.

Dd1 is 'sassy'. She isn't as rude as your examples but we've certainly had some similar incidents. She is also quiet in front of strangers and school think she's an angel.

She's a bit older (10). She is very clever verbally and extremely funny - proper laugh out loud comic timing. A lot of her lippiness is picked up from dh who is similarly very very funny but is bolshy, talks over the top of people and can be disrespectful at times. The thing is, he can temper it and knows when to pull himself back. She hasn't learned nuance yet.

I try to consistently pull her up when she is rude, point out to dh where he has to model better behaviour and regularly chat her through what is appropriate. My mum does similar with her. Dh struggles to spot it but at least backs me up. It's tough going but she is getting better.

It is hard with dh though as he just doesn't get that she picks up from him. You have my sympathy here you really do.

Mind you, I am also so proud of how she can express herself, argue her point and she is genuinely the funniest person I have ever met so I know what you mean about not wanting to squash her spirit.

Your DD is still little so keep on it like you are doing. And keep on at DH to at least back you up if nothing else.

In my experience italians are very on regarding children s manners. Kids may stay up late and be noisy but no italian will tolerate their kids snapping at waiters and screeching . I would not blame evrything on your DH unless he has sole custody of your DD. Manners are not english, but international, so they should be thought, allowing for some cultural differences yes, but not tp the point of rudeness.

The not saying please and thank you, and clicking is what you should focus on.

One of my dd’s was the same. Shy girl who turned into being honest. She also got excellent reports and like you I was confused. She speaks her mind. As she has got older she has learnt how to not be as blunt. But I am also the same. Neither of us are loners because of it.

Why shouldn’t we be honest with people when asked a question?

For whatever reason she isn’t looking forward to school, despite doing well. Do you know why or is it just the usual end of holiday blues?

I cant comment about in italy but in my country there is no way we will say please and thank you as often as engish people do.
Saying 'Can I have the bread?' is normal and considered polite.

Going to bed at midnight would also be considered ok for chlidren during the holidays.

Same with the way she spoke to the woman. Her first answer was quite normal. She doesnt have to look forward to go to school. And her secong answer was actualy factually true. The woman had no idea how her school is and whether she would enjoy it once there.
Learning to say 'white lies' and how to answer things without being too forward isnt always easy.
What I a finding more ineresting is why she feels she can answer that way with people she doesnt now but not with people she does know....

Fwiw, my way of deling with different ways of doing things/rules in different coountry is to adapt to where I am. So when in my home country, rules are somehow different. Forgetting the please and tahnk you would be ok and so is going to be late or making more noise etc... Different country, different rules (the same way that there are different laws for adults!) is, for me, a sanity saver. If you try to enforce rules that no one enforces and that everyine else in the fmily tells her are unnecessary, you are going to loose that battle. Better to go with the flo woth the EXPRESS agreement that what goes in Italy stays in Italy iyswim

The clicking is the thing that stands out as being particularly awful. An adult who did that would be a complete knob, so it’s not just about being a child. The other comment is her being very direct, and I think sometimes it’s a skill that needs to be learnt, to tactfully engage in conversation and humour people rather than just contradict them - she is only six, she has you to help her, she will get there - if you can rein dp in.

Agree the first answer was ok the second one a bit rude.

She sounds similar to my DD2 who has Aspergers in some ways.

Selective mutism when she was younger; answers questions in accurate but socially inappropriate ways; doesn't automatically know how to address new people; is angelic in school and very different from home; appears to makes friends easily (for DD2 this took huge effort and strategies other children didn't need to use); can appear to behave more badly in new situations which are more difficult to navigate (e.g. in restaurants).

I'm not saying your DD has Aspergers but my DD has appeared rude at times when it was not at all her intention. What she needed was explanations, understanding and for people to try to help so she didn't get so stressed that she couldn't help looking rude.

Maybe there are times when your DD is struggling and seems rude because she is stressed and can't process how to communicate with new people.

I wonder if the media plays a part in it. There are often kids on TV or social media who are seen as sassy or sarcastic but in fact are downright rude and they see themselves as funny.

I also wonder if anxiety around new people is playing a part.

You are doing the right thing by correcting her when she behaves badly and teaching her social norms.

Interesting that she's not always like this. My son is 6 and no way would he get away with doing stuff like that.

But it appears you have a dh problem more than a dd problem.
Given that, I assume, the dd is being brought up on the UK you need to argue with dh that she needs to have UK manners.
No advice about what to do when on hols with crazy cousins though I'm afraid. Sounds horrendous. Yes I know Southern Europe is more relaxed generally but can't believe it's that normal to let your kids run around out of control in public places?

The waiter and finger clicking is rude. Not necessarily because of the lack of please and thank yous but because she treats them as servants basically.

Your example with the other woman? She was honest the first time, the woman insisted she doesn't know how she feels/thinks so she stuck to her stance. You'd rather she was lying basically. Maybe she was a bit abrupt and snippy and that could be worked on. What you expect her to do is never express her thoughts or feelings if they're bound to contradict an adult.

In the culture I was raised in it is unheard of for a child to even call an adult by their first name never mind speak out of turn so this is all new to me.
That's just as bad as what you DH and his family are doing,if not worse.
Kids are allowed their own thoughts and feelings . Even more importantly,they are allowed to express them.

If it was me asking her about school,I wouldn't trample all over her feelings I would either change the subject or say something comforting/ask more questions instead of insisting i know better.

You and DH need to find common ground and compromise about this otherwise you'll seriously fuck her up and/or damage your relationship with her.

I guess we cross posted. I am Italian with family both from Sicily and Rome. Snapping fingers and demanding things from a waiter is not good manners and isn't normally done in Italy (although I have noticed that snapping seems to be an older generation way of getting attention in many European countries...my older relatives used to do that to the dc's when they were babies). Is it possible that you/dd are misunderstanding because of a language barrier. My exh's (both british) used to always complain about how the Italians were always angry at each other, because he didn't understand what they were saying...(excited about the football scores or the weather or the food etc.)
The kids do stay up super late in the summer because they sleep/rest for 3 hours in the middle of the day. They are allowed to run around more than British children, but that doesn't mean they are allowed to be rude. Perhaps your dd needs some help understanding these cultural differences, especially if she doesn't speak Italian. She may be mimicking behavior without understanding the language and nuances that go with it.

Timandra I was going to suggest possible Aspergers, but didn't want to be too much of an armchair diagnoser....

Rude. Just unacceptably rude.

Oh I bloody LOVED the "DH went to collect DD from a play date and came back without her because he couldn't convince her to leave" thread. It was gold (sorry 😂).

No advice really - if school say she's lovely, and she's kind with her friends, that's the main thing. You're doing something right. All kids have their moments of precociousness. I'd love to hear more of DH's parenting though at some point 😂

It doesn't help that in DP's native language (which she speaks) requests are always in the imperative and he has taught her that please and thank you are an "English obsession"

My family is part French-speaking and we speak some German & Italian (rustily, in my case ). It is true that, in many European countries, it is not necessary to add 'please', as long as you have asked politely. So, in French, you could say "je prends un café" and you don't need to say 's'il vous plaît" on the end, as long as your intonation is polite. Italian seems to be the same. However, it is normal either to say thank you or something else polite, like 'that's kind' when the waiter brings the food. If anything, I'd say the Italians are really big on smiling and saying 'grazie', though I admit they don't usually say it 5 times in a simple transaction like the English

And, in both languages, it is more normal for children to add 'please' when speaking to adults, than it is to say please in an-adult to-adult conversation. One reason for this is probably that it is harder for children to get the intonation right.

So I'm not convinced this is a cultural issue, so much as your DH being the type of person who thinks it's OK to be rude to waiters. Sympathies.

My family are Italian. This is not the Italian way. Italians do not snap their fingers and say bring me.

You're right, I'm sorry, but your child is rude. Whatever your husband is encouraging it is not Italian by culture. It's his way. But it's not Italian.

SofiaAmes then please don't be an armchair diagnoser Most asc 'rudeness' comes from a place of stress and anxiety. my dd has asc but certainly knows not to snap her fingers at waiters.

He snatches things from me wordlessly when I hand him something and it drives me bananas

This is nothing about Italian culture and everything to do with your husband being an arsehole. As said, I come from an Italian family, all four of my grandparents were born in Italy, none of them behaved like this, in fact the opposite. My grandparents would have had something to say if anyone had behaved as rudely as your husband, And I work for a large global organisation and many Italians, none behave rudely.

Your husband is an unpleasant person. He is teaching his child to be the same, he may come from an unpleasant family. But please don't mistake this for being the Italian way. It's not. No more than it's the British way and you get bad families in Britain.

The fact she shows this behaviour with strangers makes me think it is to do with her feeling stressed , shy or not sure how to speak to people.

I think it's fairly normal at 6 not to grasp all the social rules, but I think she should be kindly corrected, e.g. when she snapped at the lady you could have asked her to say it in her kind voice.

The finger clicking is rude but I guess she has seen someone else doing it and is trying it out.

I'm sorry but that is really rude. If my ds snapped his fingers at anybody and said 'bring me this or get me that' I would Be furious with him and send him to bed with no lunch or dinner depending on the time of day