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Original poster

Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

669 replies

tippytoesah · 02/08/2019 08:37

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? Confused"

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

OP posts:
Nat6999 · 04/08/2019 21:38

It would be nice to have a choice of schools, in our area it wasnt worth putting any other secondary down than the one near us, ds wouldn't have stood a chance of getting in. Instead he is in a school where bullying & violence are normal every day happenings, Ofsted rate the school as requires improvement, SEN provision is terrible, staff are leaving in droves. Ds is very bright but is struggling with maths, instead of giving him extra help at school, their answer is "tell your mum to pay for a tutor for you" I would have loved ds to have had a chance to go to grammar school.

Doubleraspberry · 04/08/2019 21:39

And again, I do not think for a moment that kids not going to selective schools can’t succeed academically. I went to a comprehensive and managed a pretty decent degree! But curious whether ending up on the ‘other side’ of the grammar system still (in the 21st century) narrowed opportunities in the way it used to.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 21:44

Sorry- I didn’t mean to cut off relatively!

This discussion is impossible if some participants refuse to accept that there is no such thing as a comprehensive school in a wholly selective area.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

General education Secondary education
SlocombePooter · 04/08/2019 21:50

When my DD ("bog standard" comp) arrived at Oxford people were surprised she hadn't been to grammar school, as that was where most of the state school entrants were educated.

TatianaLarina · 04/08/2019 21:52

The majority still does not equal ‘relatively few’.

Given the scarcity of grammars there are still more students at Oxbridge from comprehensives than grammars.

Interestingly though, grammars send more BAME students to Cambridge than all other state schools in the country combined. BAME students are 5 times more likely to get to Oxford or Cambridge from areas with selective schools.

TatianaLarina · 04/08/2019 21:57

This discussion is impossible if some participants refuse to accept that there is no such thing as a comprehensive school in a wholly selective area.

One could equally say discussion is impossible if certain posters refuse to accept that there is.

By that score there are no comprehensives in the whole of London.

There are no areas with zero selection due to private schools.

TapasForTwo · 04/08/2019 22:09

"This discussion is impossible if some participants refuse to accept that there is no such thing as a comprehensive school in a wholly selective area."

Looking at this logically there must be some comprehensive schools. Surely not all bright children get a place at a grammar school?

Are these schools actually called "secondary modern" schools? A term that I thought disappeared in the early 1970s.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:10

The school my ds went to was not a comprehensive school. Because it does not reflect the ability range of it’s catchment area. In exactly the same way that the associated grammar school was not a comprehensive school- because neither does it.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:12

“Looking at this logically there must be some comprehensive schools. Surely not all bright children get a place at a grammar school?”
No. But a comprehensive school reflects it’s catchment. Neither grammar schools or high schools/secondary modern schools
do that.

TatianaLarina · 04/08/2019 22:15

In that case are no comprehensives in London, which will be news to Londoners.

As long as a comprehensive is non-selective with a mix of abilities teaching the national curriculum, it’s comprehensive.

JoJoSM2 · 04/08/2019 22:18

What does it matter that a school doesn’t 100% reflect the catchment? I don’t think it makes it not a comp - it can still have all abilities and reflect the abilities found in the general population.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:19

You are completely wrong- and your approach will completely screw high schools/secondary modern schools when it comes to league tables.

TatianaLarina · 04/08/2019 22:21

What you mean is you don’t agree.

SlocombePooter · 04/08/2019 22:21

And all the pupils will take the same exams. Quite often children can go to a different school for A levels, joint 6th form etc. It's not that clear cut.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:23

“What does it matter that a school doesn’t 100% reflect the catchment?”

Well if you like selective education it doesn’t. But by definition a comprehensive school does. So a school tat doesn’t isn’t a comprehensive.

TapasForTwo · 04/08/2019 22:24

"But a comprehensive school reflects it’s catchment. Neither grammar schools or high schools/secondary modern schools do that."

Sorry, I'm being bit thick here. Why do they not reflect their catchment? Does every child who passes the 11+ get a place at grammar school? Wouldn't the numbers be inconsistent from year to year? Or are there a set number of places and the pass mark is different every year?

What happens to the brighter children who don't get a grammar school place?

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:30

“What you mean is you don’t agree.”

No- what I mean is that you’re wrong. In my area the overwhelming majority of high ability children go to the grammar school with a tiny number of middle ability children who had a lucky day. The high school has all the low ability children, the overwhelming majority of the middle ability children, and a handful of high ability children who had a bad day. Neither of these schools are anything like comprehensive.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2019 22:33

“Does every child who passes the 11+ get a place at grammar school? Wouldn't the numbers be inconsistent from year to year? Or are there a set number of places and the pass mark is different every year“

In Kent yes. The pass mark is adjusted every year so about 23% pass to match the number of places.

JoJoSM2 · 04/08/2019 22:37

For schools to 100% reflect their catchments, you’d absolutely need to take away any choice from families. Sounds oppressive/dystopian to me. I just believe in families having a choice for their children.

I don’t like the idea of segregating children at 10/11 somewhere like parts of Kent when some go to the coveted grammar while others to a failing school with barely anyone passing GCSEs.

However, not every grammar area is like that! In Sutton LA there are 5 grammars and 10 comps (or shall I call them sec modern?). Only one of the latter is bad... Many parents choose to apply for one of the comps and not a grammar as they’re genuinely good schools with a lot to offer. I feel the grammar system genuinely works here.

LemonRedwood · 04/08/2019 22:37

I am finding all this fascinating. I only have in-depth experience in one local authority but your area appears to be not particularly well understood judging by some the replies you're getting Bertrand. Would be really interested to know whereabouts in the country you are - could I be very cheeky and ask you please if you'd mind pm-ing which local authority you're in? Very interested from a work point of view!

JoJoSM2 · 04/08/2019 22:44

I thought Bertrand is in Kent?

campion · 04/08/2019 22:46

What's so good about a comprehensive reflecting its catchment?
Depends on the catchment and whether you can afford the house prices if it's a good one, or afford to move out if it's a bad one.

LemonRedwood · 04/08/2019 22:47

Oh, I must have missed that somewhere JoJo. Thanks.

AlpenCrazy · 04/08/2019 22:51

No- what I mean is that you’re wrong. In my area the overwhelming majority of high ability children go to the grammar school with a tiny number of middle ability children who had a lucky day. The high school has all the low ability children, the overwhelming majority of the middle ability children, and a handful of high ability children who had a bad day. Neither of these schools are anything like comprehensive.

This. Exactly the same in my bit of Kent too. I'd add that about 6/10 that had a bad day are picked up at head teacher or individual appeal stage as well.

TatianaLarina · 04/08/2019 22:52

No- what I mean is that you’re wrong.

No, you mean you don’t agree, but you can’t see beyond your own idée fixe.

The high school has all the low ability children, the overwhelming majority of the middle ability children, and a handful of high ability children who had a bad day. Neither of these schools are anything like comprehensive.

Not true. The 11+ is not compulsory in Kent or anywhere. Some students choose to take it some don’t. Some of the bright and middle students go off to grammars and the rest stay in the state system - the comprehensives, the catholic schools (of which there are several), the science and technology colleges, performing arts schools etc.

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