Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

No 11+ in Scotland anymore. There are some schools with “Grammar School” in their title for historical reasons.

*Really? In my bit there is only one private school I can think of that you could get into if you weren’t 11+ material.

Different part of Kent to you. I can think of at least 4 private schools near me that take DC that haven't passed 11+.*

I can too AlpenCrazy. We have a family member that failed the 11+, but passed the Entrance exam into Tonbridge school....... A few of his friends that went to Tonbridge also had failed their 11+.

Of course private schools don’t only take the top students. Some (a very few) do. But most children with wealthy parents are average ability. So many private schools cater to that.

It's so wrong, either there should be grammar schools all over the country or none at all. It's not fair that the majority of the country doesn't have the chance of going to grammar school.

My DC achieved a string of grade 8 & 9 GCSEs in mixed ability classes. They were in sets for English, maths & science (only because the top set did triple rather than combined) but all other subjects were mixed ability. Everyone was set work and extension tasks where appropriate for each topic. It obviously worked, as the school achieved one of the highest progress 8 scores in the county.

Nat Many of us would argue that it is not fair that a minority of children who happen to live in grammar school areas don't have the chance of a truly comprehensive education. You rarely hear the parents of the majority of children in those areas whose DC failed the 11+ celebrating their good fortune, which indicates that they believe they will not receive as good an education as those who pass.

@Nat6999 the majority of people won’t get the chance to go to grammar school in GS areas so you’re not missing out

“It's not fair that the majority of the country doesn't have the chance of going to grammar school.”

How about the chance to go to a secondary modern? Are you equally enthusiastic about that?

I know it’s just one measure but given how relatively few state school children get into Oxbridge each year, I wonder if a single one went to a secondary modern?

“few state school children get into Oxbridge each year, I wonder if a single one went to a secondary modern?”
I know a couple who have after moving to a grammar 6th form. My own ds was considering it-and was thought a possible, but not a probable. Generally speaking, the kids who stay for the high school 6th forms are not thinking about pure academic degrees.

No state Grammar schools here, although there is a private one. Nor where I grew up.

I know of a few who made it to Russel group universities from non selective schools in grammar school areas. Such schools like this cannot be considered to be secondary modern schools due to having all abilities present ! My DD 2 being one of them, she refused at 11 and 16 to join her sister at the grammar ! This despite being more than eligible to do so at both ages.
DD2 now tells me the only reason she did not go was to spite me, not for any desire to promote the comprehensive sector.

Though despite this contextual evidence, of achievement from a non selective school, i still maintain grammar schools should be an option available to all applicable candidates.

We don't have grammar schools where I live (Somerset). I know about grammar schools and 11+ because I grew up in Buckinghamshire where they still have them.

They were abolished and merged with Secondary Moderns back in the 60s. A few areas, like Kent, hung on to the old system but there are very few of them left.

I went to a Grammar in Bristol in the 80’s (ie. not Bristol Grammar), it stopped being selective in 2001.

Now on South Coast where we have Middle schools still. The two neighbouring LEA’s have Grammar schools and traditionally local children would go there. Over last few years the numbers went down a fair bit eg in my DD’s year about 24 of the year group at her school left to go, but 5 years later in DS’s year the numbers were much lower with some getting places but not taking them.

Sciences are not good at DS’s school so he’ll be bailing for sixth form and most likely going to one of the Grammars ( having failed the 11 plus). He’s interested in Oxbridge so wants to be somewhere which will support him with an application if he decides to apply, his current school doesn’t seem particularly good with this and I have seen too many people who should have been A* or A at A levels crash and burn.

I can’t support a system which blatantly prioritises high attainers from privileged backgrounds over other children. It’s as simple as that..

We have grammar schools in name only.

If you live in the catchment area you get in or if you particularly want to send your child and you live out of area you can do the test but there are only a few places for this type of intake.

I haven’t come across proper grammar schools for decades

I know of a few who made it to Russel group universities from non selective schools in grammar school areas. Such schools like this cannot be considered to be secondary modern schools due to having all abilities present !

Quite. It’s really patronising to dismiss comprehensives in grammar areas as secondary moderns.

I know a few who made it to Russell group universities from sink estates in inner cities.

Really quite patronising.

Just because someone didn’t go to a grammar school doesn’t mean they are too thick to go to a good university

Comprehensives are not Secondary Moderns

Am in Scotland so no grammars here. I went to the local comp over 40 years ago ( high school) and we were definitely streamed, classes A to E, and then remedial!

few state school children get into Oxbridge each year, I wonder if a single one went to a secondary modern?

Me! I went to a RUBBISH school, on one memorable day a boy brought his father's gun in, there were numerous attacks with chairs, bats, occasionally knives.

I went to Cambridge, it was ace.

few state school children get into Oxbridge each year, I wonder if a single one went to a secondary modern?”

Utter nonsense. Cambridge state school intake is 63%, Oxford is 58%.

Loads from comprehensives all over the country, including grammar areas.

None up here in the north some have it in their name but means nothing

From DD2's year group (2017) in a non selective school apart from her, 2 other students 1 boy and 1 girl gained entry to a Russell group university. Another 23 other students gained entry to other universities . A significant number gained apprenticeships.

The year group was 100 so a 26% university admittance and the number successful applicants gaining apprenticeships is pretty impressive. This ridicules the 1970's idea proposed on here by some of secondary modern schooling.

The word ‘relatively’ is missing from the quote as Bertrand chopped it off! As is common knowledge, the percentage of state school children going to Oxbridge does not match the percentage of the population that is educated in them.

My question wasn’t about the ability of the kids in non-grammar schools. I was more wondering whether it was still the case that kids not getting into the grammars were still stuck with fewer educational prospects. And we all know that quite a big chunk of those Oxbridge state school admissions are from selective state schools rather than genuine comprehensives.