Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

[tippytoesah]

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? "

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

@fedup21

Why do people write such bizarre things?!

Because everyone believes they are an authority based on their limited experience

I will write with authority based on the Herts education system because I work in the education department of Herts local authority. Would never claim that I was as knowledgeable about any other LAs though. Weird that people think what happens in one LA expands to others.

Bit of an assumption there that all the clever kids are the ones whose parents can afford private school

I made no such assumption.

The more I read the word grammar the more I find it odd.

Not 25% of them!

Sorry but you’re wrong. In London boroughs, 25% in private education is fairly standard, in some boroughs it’s nearly 50%. 22% of all children at private schools live in London.

No such things as grammar schools around here and not in the surrounding counties either, there hasn't been for decades.

Bertrand I have a very large Catholic family in the North with oodles of aunts, uncles over 30 first cousins and massive extended family.

I'd happily argue this toss with you for as long as we are both alive and on mn.

Grammar as they were did lift many many many many many very poor /disadvantaged /trapped dc out of poverty, in all senses.

It was a proper ladder out of poor and lower working class background because the teachers and school had more in put. It wasn't left purely down to parents, and if it had back in the day, many of my family members couldn't have had access to it.

The reason fsm can't access it is because in many areas the onus is on the parents to be active.

Was, is it fair? No. But is the comp system fair? Absolutely not.

Can it be tweaked. Yes. Do poor primary school dc need more help in school and from out reach? Yes.

Are sec moderns shit? No not necessarily.

No school should use the excuse of another schools existence for it being shit.
Do we need more money, thoughts, help for all dc in education? Yes.

Should parents agaisnt grammar in the counties that have them, put their money where their mouth is and keep dc on the sec modern. Well, it would be an interesting experiment.

Tatiana you compared, and continue to compare, the ‘creaming off’ of the children who go to private school to the children who go to grammar school. Which offers the assumption that those children are the clever ones.

Frangelino- if I have learned one thing over a long life it’s that people who prefer anecdote to data are completely unconvinceable. So I could produce pages of hard data about the outcomes of disadvantaged children at grammar schools over the years, the many and complex drivers of social mobility and lack thereof , the socio -economic background of 11+ passers, the psychological and societal damage created by selective education......and your would counter it all with “But my Aunt Mary........”. So if you’ll forgive me I’ll pass.

Where I live there are 2 super selective grammars, the kind with 2500 sitting for 150 places and where children travel for hours to get there. I don’t know anyone who even bothered. They go private or use the really good comprehensives

I used to live in Essex and I took the 11-plus. There were only two of us in the entire school who took it that year, me and a boy.

We both passed, and I scored 1 mark higher than he did - he went to grammar school and I didn't get a place. The reason being that at the time there were more places for boys than there were for girls.

My first introduction to sex discrimination that was, it was in 1972 and I'm still pissed off about it.

“Wherever you are children will be ‘creamed off’ the state system either to grammars or to private”

Round us the vast majority of middle class families send their kids to the comprehensives. So not ‘creamed off’ to private. No Grammars.

Comprehensives in which kids from all backgrounds mix and do extremely well.

I have been impressed with how many top set maths peers of my Dc have gained places at King’s Maths School for sixth form. Many of these are young people living in e inimical and social challenge, the demographic most under represented in Grammars.

However stringent Tonbridge’s entrance exam, my Dd’ state school beat them to take first place in one of the Royal Society National Science competitions.

There is no intrinsic reason why any comp cannot do the best by all ability groups. Plenty do. But they are pushed by league tables, judges in getting the middle ability through the magic % of subjects passed at grade 5 and over etc etc.

And with budgets shaved year on year, I could see how targeted specialism is compromised. But that is an over arching funding issue.

Tatiana you compared, and continue to compare, the ‘creaming off’ of the children who go to private school to the children who go to grammar school. Which offers the assumption that those children are the clever ones.

‘Creaming off’ was not my phrase and I find it slightly revolting in this context. Many private schools are less academic than grammar schools. The point was simply that children are taken out of the non-selective state system whether to grammars or the private sector.

The broader point being that no comprehensives are truly comprehensive.

Round us the vast majority of middle class families send their kids to the comprehensives

It’s always nice to hear of middle classes managing to dominate state schools, are you expecting some kind of prize?

It’s always nice to hear of middle classes managing to dominate state schools, are you expecting some kind of prize?
You do know everyone is allowed a place at state schools. Even middle class kids. Not sure why you’re trying to make out this is some sort of problem.

But why does the absence of any children make a school less comprehensive unless those children are the clever ones? Do you see what the implication is?

Why does does taking some (not ‘the’) children out make a comprehensive less comprehensive than taking less able children out?

Comprehensive indicates all abilities in this context, if you take children of any ability out it’s less comprehensive.

^^ Why does does taking some (not ‘the’) clever children out

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on what your post implied. I can only offer what I inferred.

I attended two grammar schools: one in Kent and the other in Oxfordshire.

Oxfordshire, as far as I am aware, has not had grammar schools 1974.

The school in Kent, on the other hand, is still a grammar school in 2019 and children in my home town still sit the eleven-plus exam.

My post didn’t actually imply what you thought it did, but you’re free to infer what you like.

Tatiana

“It’s always nice to hear of middle classes managing to dominate state schools, are you expecting some kind of prize?”

1. They don’t dominate in my kids school. They are a minority
2. The comment in my post was in response to children being otherwise ‘creamed off’ via private ex or grammar, which is well known to be dominated by middle class families. If you are aware of any allegations of largely working class groups of kids being ‘creamed off’ please let us know. I am saying in my area they are not ‘creamed off’, mostly everyone goes to the comprehensives.
3. I was not born and educated middle class so I won’t be eligible for your sarky prize. Never mind.

Normal. I grew up in barking and we had no grammar schools. I moved to Kent in 2011 and it's a thing here. Lots of places don't have them.

But ‘creaming off’ is a horrible and somewhat offensive phrase really.

Also loads of working class kids take up the majority of grammars here. I'm wc and my son has a very good chance of getting in as we've been told to put him in for it. My husband went to one and is very wc and all his friends are from them. I think people think they are still privately funded. They are just selective states here.

In this context, certainly. In the context of milk it’s not so bad.

Either way 7% in any given area, rising much higher in London, will go to private school.

From your previous post addressed to me you seem to have assumed I was criticising comprehensives. Where have I said that children from all backgrounds can’t mix well or that comprehensives can’t do well by any ability group?