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Original poster

Does Grammar School not exist to some people?

669 replies

tippytoesah · 02/08/2019 08:37

Surely it must do?

I've never really discussed schooling before with DH as DC is still so young. But I did recently and mentioned that if he showed promise or wanting to take the 11+, we would support him in any way possible.

He looked at me as if I had two heads and said "What's an 11+? Confused"

He really didn't know it was a thing and had never heard of it. I was shocked and mentioned it to SIL and her friend who also have 0 idea what it is!

I'm not from around here and I grew up in Essex. It was quite a big thing in that county, or at least the area I was in. You either went to a non Christian school which was absolutely terrible, went to a Christian school who were actually half decent or you did the 11+ if you were really bright. It was encouraged and supported.

Does it not even exist in some places then? I will look further into it but DH and close relatives/friends seem to be as clueless as him... maybe it isn't a thing in that part of the county

OP posts:
JacquesHammer · 03/08/2019 11:53

A massively important point is that high schools rightly focus their attention on the low and middle attainers that make up around 95% of their cohort

Which confirms why grammars are needed surely - schools that will concentrate attention on high achievers?

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2019 11:59

“Which confirms why grammars are needed surely - schools that will concentrate attention on high achievers?”

Comprehensive schools have all abilities under one roof.

JacquesHammer · 03/08/2019 12:02

Comprehensive schools have all abilities under one roof

Indeed. And some don’t cater for all pupils successfully.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

General education Secondary education
TatianaLarina · 03/08/2019 12:07

Tatiana, if 30% of the DC who pass the test are creamed off, even with the blunt tool that the 11+ is that’s still a high proportion of the brighter DC. It’s disingenuous to say that the remaining schools won’t be affected. Only 7% of DC go to private schools nationally and most of their tests are less rigorous, so have a much smaller effect.

One thing surely we have all learnt historically is how just many bright children failed the 11+. It was abolished partly because it didn’t really work. It cannot be relied upon as a index of intelligence.

All we can say is that 30% are randomly taken out at 11. Some of whom will have been highly tutored above their actual achievement level.

Many independent school exams are harder than the state 11+. Tonbridge, Sevenoaks and Caterham entrance exams are pretty tough.

In my area of London, where there are no grammars, children either go to comprehensives or private school. Wherever you are children will be ‘creamed off’ the state system either to grammars or to private.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2019 12:08

“Indeed. And some don’t cater for all pupils successfully.”

Some schools don’t regardless of type or sector..

TatianaLarina · 03/08/2019 12:09

A massively important point is that high schools rightly focus their attention on the low and middle attainers that make up around 95% of their cohort

I don’t agree that is the right approach. They should be focusing their attention on low, medium and high equally.

JacquesHammer · 03/08/2019 12:15

Some schools don’t regardless of type or sector

Absolutely. My point was about comprehensives. Are you not willing to admit that? That’s foolish for you, even with regards to your usual level of contribution to education threads.

Punxsutawney · 03/08/2019 12:17

My eldest Ds's secondary modern seemed to really encourage their higher achievers far more actually than youngest's grammar. The grammar teaching is quite poor in comparison. In our experience they also have very little support for an able child with SEN. Living in a grammar area makes me see how much better the comprehensive system is.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2019 12:46

“Absolutely. My point was about comprehensives. Are you not willing to admit that?” Am I willing to admit what? That some comprehensives aren’t very good? Of course I am.

Doubleraspberry · 03/08/2019 15:27

Wherever you are children will be ‘creamed off’ the state system either to grammars or to private.

Bit of an assumption there that all the clever kids are the ones whose parents can afford private school. Whatever the flaws of state grammar schools they are free to all, and even the cost of tutoring is affordable to far more parents than private school.

Apples and pears.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2019 15:51

“Wherever you are children will be ‘creamed off’ the state system either to grammars or to private.”

Not 25% of them!

Countrygirl38 · 03/08/2019 15:57

We have no grammar schools near us. We do have plenty of very good non-selective state schools. I am glad there are no grammar schools here.

ColaFreezePop · 03/08/2019 15:58

I went to a Comp where if you were regarded as being in a highest ability group or low ability group you were considered to have SEN.

So you would get relevant tuition to meet those needs. This would mean extra classes in specific subjects outside school hours or at lunch times or being sent to a local college/university to get tuition. A couple of other Comps in the area did similar and apparently all still do.

The pupils who missed out in those schools where those in the middle. It was regarded in the area that if you had an average ability child and you could afford it, you should send them to a private school.

Countrygirl38 · 03/08/2019 15:58

I will also add that I barely know anyone that have kids that go to private schools either in my area

Fragalino · 03/08/2019 16:08

I can never understand the usual comp arguments on here, BTW I am sending dc to one shortly and I'm very happy so far (she hasn't started yet).

But she will go into top sets.

I cannot fathom how my dd being in top sets along with other top set students could possibly benefit anyone in lower sets Hmm

Head of ofsted admitted how comps failing the top 10% etc. Measures seem to be coming in to redress this like progress 8 etc however I know my dd school is rated well, but it's not supporting lower set dc.

Overall I am not a fan of comps at all and there will be ghettos wherever you send your dc

Fragalino · 03/08/2019 16:09

There are also comps round me in very wealthy roads houses 850 plus and yet comp has been failing for decades.

Shosha1 · 03/08/2019 16:13

We have two in Salisbury.

South Wilts Grammar School for Girls

And

Bishop Wordsworth's School which is for the boys.

Fragalino · 03/08/2019 16:16

@teakettlebell

Your dm can't have been lifted out of poverty ( along with mine and several other pp parents) by entrance to grammar and education, because it doesn't say so in the stats. They can't have been in true poverty.

There are experts on the thread in ' true poverty' whether they have actually been poor or are poor, is open to question.

BertrandRussell · 03/08/2019 16:25

Obviously there have been individuals “lifted out of poverty” by the selective system. But it was not a common experience. And it still is not today. And it is arguable whether a system that greatly benefitted a few individuals while disadvantaging the majority is acceptable. Then, as now, the children who would most benefit from grammar or from private education are in general, the children least likely to get it.

TeaKettleBell · 03/08/2019 16:31

They were definitely in poverty. It was post war Britain where people made furniture out of tea chests and there was rationing. You know, the one that so many Brexiteers long for.
Maybe the Brexiteers also long to bring back grammar schools as well so that will help their argument.
Frankly I think a nice streamed comp is the way to go. The ones in NI are heavily oversubscribed.

GreekOddess · 03/08/2019 16:38

I think it's more surprising that you thought that attending a Grammar school was an option for your child when you don't live in a Grammar area Confused

mamaoffourdc · 03/08/2019 17:21

Loads in Kent Canterbury/Ashford

Doubleraspberry · 03/08/2019 17:23

Maybe the Brexiteers also long to bring back grammar schools as well so that will help their argument.

They definitely do, so win/win.

Oneoffname · 03/08/2019 17:55

In the spirit of openness, I need to let you know that I've already posted on this thread under my usual name. I've nc'd for this post as it's easily recognisable to anyone who knows me.
Wrt grammar schools lifting people out of poverty, I think that is sometimes true, but not always. My mum, born before the war, could not to to grammar school as my grandparents could not afford the uniform - there were no uniform grants available at that time. In fact, my mum never had a school uniform at all and consequently was excluded from many activities - she is still sad today that the lack of uniform meant she could not to on the school trip to The Festival of Britain. Her sister could not to to grammar school as my grandparents could not afford to pay for the bus fares. Her youngest sister, however, went to grammar school and university (on a grant) as by then, both my mum and her other sister had married and left home, so my grandparents were on a better position financially.
I passed the 11+ and had a place at grammar school, but between the place being accepted and me starting, the LA decided to go comprehensive.
These days, it seems to me that in this area anyway, the only children who really have the chance to go to grammar school are those whose parents can afford to pay tutors - so not necessarily the brightest children, just the bright ones whose parents can afford the tutoring. Or, those who have been to private school and then go to state grammar - I know several children whose parents have done this.
My own dcs went to a local comprehensive school and did extremely well, I doubt that they could have bettered their results at a grammar school.

If we are going to have grammar schools, I do believe they should genuinely be open to all children who reach a certain level in whatever teat is chosen, regardless of whether parents can pay for a tutor or not - we could not have afforded it for our dcs yet one of them had since gone on to achieve an excellent Master's degree in a STEM subject which they now teach in a top rated comprehensive school!

Essexgirlupnorth · 03/08/2019 17:58

I also grew up in Essex and went to a grammar school but now live in Manchester. Trafford has a grammar school system but the area I live in doesn't.
If the area you grew up in doesn't have grammar schools I would understand not knowing about them

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