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Original poster

Feeling conflicted - hate crime, really?

60 replies

Jux · 20/04/2019 00:22

I have ms and use a mobility scooter to do local shopping, as I can't walk very far. Today I was with dh, we'd finished the shopping when we passed a cafe with tables out on the pavement where we decided to have a drink. DH went in to order while I parked up. I had to wait a little while as an elderly chap with a mobility scooter was just leaving and I intended to use the same space. All fine and good, I parked up after gent had gone and was getting myself off the scooter to join dh at the table next to where I'd parked.

A chap from the shop next door came out and went into the cafe, then came out with the cafe owner who asked me to park elsewhere as the chap from the shop - he's standing right in front of me - didn't like people parking there. I was a bit gobsmacked but also a bit cross because he had walked right past me and not said a word, so I asked him why he hadn't spoken to me, said I spoke English and generally understood the language (it's my native language after all) so why hadn't he just spoken to me. He made excuses - the cafe owner hadn't liked him speaking directly to the previous customer basically. Anyway I moved.

The cafe owners were so upset by it, but my dh was furious. We have lived here nearly 15 years, I have parked that scooter, and the previous one, outside pretty well every shop in the high street and no one has had a word to say about it. I don't block doorways, I don't block the pavements, I don't get in people's way.

About half way through our drinks, the next door shop owner came out again and started apologising, by saying "I used to have friends with ms, I have employed people with ms..." at which I did feel aa little angry so said thatwhat he was saying was exactly the same as "I can't possibly be racist, I have a black friend" and then I said "just go away please". DH also told him that he was the only person in over 10 years who'd pbjected to my parking outside their shop and he hoped the man was ashamed. Thus it ended; we finished out drinks and went home.

DH was still so angry he was shaking. He rang the police. They say it was a hate crime and want us to go to the station to make a statement, after which they'll go and talk to the man.

My dilemma is that actually, moving the scooter wasn't hard for me to do. Luckily the shop on the other side was closed so I parked in fromt of there - when it's open I won't be able to do that as they put tons of stuff on the pavement when they're open. Today it wasn't a problem. So I'm inclined to leave it.

BUT the old man who was there before me did have a problem, and left. That's not right so maybe I should make a statement and strike a note for his right to visit the cafe.

And then, the shop owner - trade isn't that great where we live, many people are on the breadline in this town. You can still see what is in his window when there's a scooter parked, it's a little less easy but the difference is not great. He has a whole other window on the other side of his door.

DH gets a bit wound up if he thinks I'm being snubbed or hurt because of my disability, and sometimes goes a bit further than I would have on my own. DD is appalled that anyone in the town (many, many old people and many disabled people using various walking aids), and she is absolutely certain about this hate crime which has been performed against me. Yes, police, go as far as you can mum......

So, for me, it's a pretty small thing which I would normally forget as soon as it's over, but on principle it's outrageous.

I am really struggling, and don't know what to do. Cops or not?

OP posts:
Aimily · 20/04/2019 00:28

I would sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning, only because from your post you sound very on the fence. I think when you wake up you'll know its your still annoyed enough to make a statement, or calm enough to let it go. I hope that helps?

Tunnockswafer · 20/04/2019 00:29

I am not minimising what happened to you today, but why do the police think it was a hate crime, doesn’t that mean a crime aggravated by hate - ie there’d have to be a crime committed for a reason related to certain protected characteristics. I’m not sure asking for the scooter to be moved is a crime.

TeaForDad · 20/04/2019 00:30

Sounds like the shop owner was being a knob for objecting, though not 100% without seeing a photo of course.
I am against "hate crimes" and this is a good example of them being counter productive: you'd like the shop owner told off but it's clearly not an act of "hatred" which deserves that kind of wrap on record.
I would go there again and, if you have trouble, call the cops there and then

FiremanKing · 20/04/2019 00:32

Would he have asked someone to move a double buggy/pram?

That’s what I would wonder.

I don’t think it’s a hate crime in that he is prejudiced against anyone disabled more that he is uptight and petty about his precious shop front being obscured.

He was in the wrong because a customer of the cafe is only going to be there for a short duration of the day.

Personally, rather than go through the police I would write the shop owner a letter and tell him how upset/humiliated/angry you felt at being asked to move and invite him to reply.

Greensleeves · 20/04/2019 00:37

I am not against the notion of "hate crime", personally, but I don't think this is what it means. This was rude, inconsiderate and possibly prejudiced, but it wasn't a crime and it wasn't motivated by hate.

I would drop it and move on.

amandacarnet · 20/04/2019 01:08

In terms of a hate crime, this would never be prosecuted as one. What would happen is a CSO would pop down and speak to the shop owner.
I would sleep on it. I think younger people tend to get more annoyed at injustices than older people, mainly because by the time you are older you have probably experienced or at least witnessed major injustices. So it puts everything into perspective.
Personally I would leave it, but park the scooter again in front of his shop and see if he says anything again. If he did, I would then take it further.

Original poster
Jux · 20/04/2019 01:51

Thank you all. I am already feeling like I've made a mountain out of a molehill, or am in the process of doing so.

I don't think he was motivated by hate, and I don't know if he'd be the same if it had been a double buggy, but think he probably would be, I don't think he is singling out disabled people so not bigoted against me/us, but actually I don't know that at all.

I shall sleep on it, but think I've already decided it's not worth doing.

Thank you all, you've really helped.

OP posts:
NaughtToThreeSadOnions · 20/04/2019 02:14

It depends what it was motivated by. If it was just hes a knob about his shop being obscured by anyone then no not a,hate crime

If it was motivated by a dislike of people with disablities then prehaos not a hate crime but prehaps a hate incident.

And the fact you your self say he came back with the oh i know people with MS... smacks of the i'm not racist my best friends are black ...i'm not homophobic i watch Graham Norton, type excuses which sounds like you believe he has underlying prejudices

Thing is as the law stands if sone one thinks it is a hate crime then it is a hate crime. And that includes the police answering the phone to your husband relaying the incident.

I suspect it was neither a hate crime or even tbh a hate incident

Hiwever if you do feel that it was a hate incedent then do please report it. Jate against disabled people is ridiclously under reported because so many think no one will listen

Orangeballon · 20/04/2019 02:17

The Police have more to do than referee petty arguments about mobility scooters.

TooTrueToBeGood · 20/04/2019 02:36

I'm not sure you can have a hate crime when there hasn't actually been a crime and, whilst perhaps unreasonable, asking someone to move is not a criminal offence. That said, people with disabilities have a hard enough time as it is without unreasonable prats making it even harder for them. If you take a stand against this unreasonable, inconsiderate oaf i think it would be a good thing but equally if you don't want to that is absolutely your right. Perhaps the council might be a better option than the police. This man does not own the pavement and thus has no right to try and restrict who uses it. A visit/letter from the council pointing that out to him and explaining that his behaviour could be seen as disablist will probably put him back in his box.

Original poster
Jux · 20/04/2019 12:06

Orangeballoon my belief exactly.
TooTrue, good idea. I think dh would be mollified by a letter from the Council being sent.
Naughttosee, I am concerned about the "it's a hate crime if I say it is" aspect, it's the same as offence, isn't it, and NOT to be encouraged!

In the cold light of day I am even more inclned to see it as just a petty incident which I can deal with myself - I have considered going in, apologising for being intemperate and then (hopefully) having a look outside with him to see where mobility scooters could park which is close enough but which also doesn't block so much of his window (not that his window is blocked, just made less convenient to look into). I'm sure that we could come to some sort of agreement which he can live with.

Naught I do like your "I'm not homophobic, i watch Graham Norton" example Grin, I shall call it the Graham Norton Defence herafter! That's the only bit of the incident which still pisses me off a bit, but with luck he won't be tempted to use it again.

OP posts:
Nicknacky · 20/04/2019 12:22

Unless I’ve missed something, why did your h phone the police in the first place?

Original poster
Jux · 20/04/2019 12:26

Because he was cross, Nickynacky. I didn't know until he'd done it.

OP posts:
TheHatOfDoom · 20/04/2019 12:54

As someone who is disabled, I would want to involve the police because it does meet the legal definition of a hate crime and it might prevent others having the same experience. But in reality I don't think the decision would be that straight forward. Particularly as like you I have family who sometimes get more angry on my behalf than I do.

Nicknacky · 20/04/2019 13:20

He might well have been cross, but totally ridiculous to call the police.

Tunnockswafer · 20/04/2019 14:58

Thehatofdoom I’ve been reading the CPS pages on hate crime and I really don’t think it does - unless the OP felt he was intimating her that’s the closest part of the definition to this.
Maybe OP did feel intimidated but I hadn’t picked that up.

AlexaAmbidextra · 20/04/2019 15:08

I’m astonished that a disagreement about the parking of a mobility scooter with no allegations of aggression or violence, culminated in your husband thinking it necessary to call the police. And your daughter agreeing that it is a hate crime and encouraging you to take it further. I can see where she gets her drama llama tendencies from. You seem to be the only sensible one in the family.

jackparlabane · 20/04/2019 15:18

As I see it, hate crimes are about the impact on the recipient, not the intent of the perpetrator. So for example, neighbour has a mum with dementia who uses a wheelchair. She leaves the wheelchair in the hall on the ground floor as it doesn't fit in the lift to their flat.

I'm sure the drunken idiots attending parties on the ground floor don't mean to deprive an elderly disabled lady of the means to exit her building, but every time they go for joyrides in it and either leave it streets away or break it, that's the result and I'm very happy that the police say it's a hate crime.

ineedaknittedhat · 20/04/2019 15:19

It may not be an actual crime, but making disabled people feel like they're being an inconvenience by not being able to have their disability aids nearby is certainly nasty and discriminatory.

Brahumbug · 20/04/2019 15:36

The shop owner was unbelievably rude in asking you to move and condescending in his " I know people with MS" routine. But your husband in contacting the police is beyond parody. Not so much a mountain out of a mole hill but Everest out of a mine shaft. This is why I loath generic offenses such as 'hate crime', it can be taken to mean anything.

qwertyskirty · 20/04/2019 15:38

Something similar happened to me on a few occasions (disability related) and I can see how you're conflicted. For me I weighed up the following : could I help someone in the future by effecting a change? Am I prepared to deal with the potential stress and bad feeling that taking this further would create? How strongly do I feel/if I have woken up in 2 days time and forgotten it altogether or not?
I have let things slide and followed them up but usually only when I have had a day or two to reflect. Only you can answer that question OP.
In this scenario to be honest I would leave it - hate crime is a bit much isn't it. I would think education and empathy is a better place to begin.

Original poster
Jux · 20/04/2019 16:21

I've just got back from a trip down the high street. I thught I would pop in to his shop and just make peace, but he had customers so I left it, I'll do it next week.

He has put an A-board in the place where I parked which instantly solves the problem! Clever of him, I thought, sorts it out for now and ever after without upsetting anyone.

I agree with every word you said, Brahumbug. The more small slights and disagreements we can sort out between ourselves without emotions clouding the issue the better. Always better to sleep on it.

Yes, dh and dd do get v angry on my behalf, which I understand. Sometimes it's necessary!

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 20/04/2019 17:13

I’m astonished that a disagreement about the parking of a mobility scooter with no allegations of aggression or violence, culminated in your husband thinking it necessary to call the police.

My wife has MS, and for some reason I'm not astonished. But then today, alone, I watched 3 fit and healthy men try to push in front of her in one single shop at Sainsburys (deli counter, kiosk, and cake counter). Can't really comment on this situation, but I can totally empathise with the anger.

twattymctwatterson · 20/04/2019 17:16

I'm gobsmacked that someone called the police because they were asked to move a mobility scooter. I might be annoyed but wouldn't think for a minute that a crime had been committed against me

Babdoc · 20/04/2019 17:22

I don’t like the term “ hate crime” - it seems silly and childish to attribute such deep emotions as hate, to a minor dispute about parking or whatever.
I always remember Gene Hunt in Ashes to Ashes scoffing: “Hate crimes? What, as opposed to all those ‘Love you to bits’ crimes?!”
As the DC’s headmistress said to them once “You don’t hate her, you merely dislike her.”