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The rise of the far right

81 replies

Rory786 · 18/01/2019 09:39

Is anyone else concerned about the rise of the far right.

I just read that Marion Marechal Le Pen will be invited to speak at the Oxford Union following her aunt Marine Le Pen, Ann Coulter, Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson.

OP posts:
RedWineIsFabulous · 18/01/2019 14:15

Am
More concerned with the ever increasing rise of the hard left tbh

joystir59 · 18/01/2019 14:16

Michael Jackson gave a great speech to the Oxford Union about forgiveness to one's parents

WhentheRabbitsWentWild · 18/01/2019 14:23

*Too many people too busy telling other people what they can do, say and think to see that they are actually causing problems that didn't actually exist. Both far right and far left."

THIS . Absolutely This. ^

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

scaryteacher · 18/01/2019 14:23

Onlyfools NATO is going to be undermined by PESCO pretty quickly.

The jury is out on this one. PESCO in theory could undermine NATO, but will the EU Member states want to pay more for their defence, rather than riding on US coat tails? Whatever the EU comes up with (unless they beef up EUROGENDFOR into a more paramilitary force) will cost, and they may well realise that NATO can do it better and faster, as it is long established and it works, and has US backing.

There will still be one set of Forces per nation; at the moment if a ship is on a UK tasking, it cannot then also be a NATO vessel, unless the two taskings coincide. A frigate cannot be Falklands guard ship for example, and simultaneously be doing anti piracy patrols in the Indian ocean. Unless the EU member states signed up to PESCO are going to massively increase their personnel and materiel with the concomitant costs, training, infrastructure and wages and pensions liabilities, PESCO may not amount to much. I can't see the EU running RAP

I would add that the EUMS (EU military staff) is very much run along NATO lines anyway, so it is a duplication with a different name. Have a look here at what NATO has done with the RAP since 2014
{ttp:www.atahq.org/2018/02/projecting-stability-adapting-nato-readiness-action-plan/ the EU would still be talking about it.

WhentheRabbitsWentWild · 18/01/2019 14:24

And another bold fail !!

I am tired of being told by either extremes .
You must not think that
You must not say that
You can't say that
Etc

I was born with free will . Ill be damned if others tell me what's what Sick of it all.

scaryteacher · 18/01/2019 14:40

Whentherabbits It does get all a bit 1984 sometimes.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 15:01

NATO is being weakened by a range of factors. The collapse of the Warsaw Pact weakened NATO.

The US funded NATO for its own strategic ends. Why should the US fund Europe's defence - because it is in the U.S interest to do so.

Trump is weakening NATO by being as you say 'undiplomatic' he will push allies away. NATO has been a strong and solid ally but other alliances are being built with countries that don't have a bully in charge.

Interesting that you don't believe in a liberal consensus. I think social agreement, and end to racism and sexism, working together, support for the welfare state is a pretty good middle ground. I think about 85% of British politicians fit into this broad brush grouping.

How would you describe yourself politically scaryteacher?

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 15:07

What I class as tactics of the right are tactics of all extremists you are correct. They differ on the left as the left has more arguments about theory.

Tactics of the right.
Seeking to widen division. Looking for a split and then seeking to widen it. Making an extreme stance and refusing to compromise. Making no effort to listen. A focus on narrative and beliefs. A refusal to look for simply.

My middle ground won't be your middle ground. But I am happy to point to the middle ground from my stance on the left and have a discussion. I am happy to compromise on the middle ground if I can't get what I want.

I want to seek consensus and find a way to agree rather than looking to disagree on everything.

pusspuss9 · 18/01/2019 15:23

Honestly mousse, the tactics on the 'right' are not to widen division, but to face facts, discuss facts and try to deal with them. The tactics of the left is to deny facts and forbid anybody to speak about them for fear of being verbally attacked and called 'nazis'. I'm assuming here that by 'right' you mean anybody that has objections to mass immigration.

Where `~I do agree with you is that there should be open discussions on hot topics and a desire of both sides to at least understand the other's point of view and be willing to change ones own pov if persuaded.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 15:50

I've just been on a thread talking about immigration and been sent a pm that is racist.

Any thread about immigration will have most posters being reasonable and then 'the nutter' will pop up. Not always but often 'the nutter' will be on the right and racist.

You want to face facts but the trouble the right faces is that there are too many flat out racists. While you struggle to debate and be reasonable you are overtaken by racists.

Look at UKIP I don't think NF would be racist on an individual level and that is what he wanted for his party. His party has now been taken over by people who are out and out racists.

The left have their own struggles with extremists but on the right you have to put your house in order. If you want the open debate you have to shut the racists up and not leave that to the left.

I am not saying the left is free from problems it isn't - but this debate is about the right.

Waspnest · 18/01/2019 15:51

This is one of the reasons why I ummed and ahhed and eventually voted to leave the EU. I worried about the rise of the far right in Eastern European countries (I think anyone who believes our presence in the EU has any influence on this at all is naïve) plus the rise of right wing ideas like restricting abortions in Poland and I think the way the EU has treated Greece is pretty right wing i.e. lend it loads of money then call in the debt and not give a fuck about the poverty and destruction of peoples' lives.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 15:54

Why is it naive to think we have an influence in Europe? Have you seen the open letter sent by leading Germans to the U.K.

We are generally (or were until recently) regarded as a voice of reason. The Poles looked to the uk as a model for being in the EU but not slavishly following all the rules.

We have a big influence in Poland not least because of the Polish diaspora who live and work here.

Waspnest · 18/01/2019 16:00

Sorry I don't agree, I have 2 really good friends, one is Eastern European, one is from Western Europe, both live in the UK and love it here. Both say the problem with the UK is that whilst their countries pay lip service to EU rules, they do what suits them best ultimately whereas the UK grumbles like crazy but reluctantly follows the rules. Ultimately every country will do what is best for its own people, and I don't blame them for that.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 16:02

My point is that the U.K. is liked and respected in Europe. We had a big influence- this may now be fading.

We had a great opportunity to influence other countries away from the far right by listening and being moderate.

Waspnest · 18/01/2019 16:08

I just don't believe the UK has had that influence for a long time. I think the EU liked the money we paid in and will miss the intelligence we provide but that's it. If the EU thought we were all in it together Macron wouldn't have been trying to nick the UK's financial industry for France and Poland wouldn't be fine with Whirlpool and Cadburys closing factories in the UK and moving them to their country.

pusspuss9 · 18/01/2019 16:12

We had a great opportunity to influence other countries away from the far right by listening and being moderate.

I think you're wrong here. People are mostly 'right' because of what they see happening around them. A lot of people I know in Germany
have some quite negative comments on what they see in some of UK's
larger towns and cities. It's pretty naive of you to think that the Uk could persuade them on immigration issues. You're right that UK is liked and respected here though.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 16:32

Why is naive to think that the U.K. is listened to in a community that we contribute to significantly? We have for centuries been a major influence in Europe. In the 20th century we fought to help other countries when we could have run away.

Simultaneously leavers think we can stand on our own because we are powerful but no one in Europe cares or listens to us.

As part of Europe we have a great deal of influence if we leave we dilute that influence significantly. Many in Europe who do not want closer integration saw the U.K. as the leader of that bloc.

scaryteacher · 18/01/2019 16:45

Mousse The collapse of the Warsaw Pact weakened NATO. Really? Yet it gained all these new Allies afterwards who had been Warsaw pact countries, and who are now against Russia. The only thing that would weaken NATO is the collapse of Russia. Whilst Putin is empire building and sabre rattling, then NATO serves its purpose.

The US funded NATO for its own strategic ends. Why should the US fund Europe's defence - because it is in the U.S interest to do so. Moot point with the pivot to the Pacific. Those of you under 40 might not remember the Cold War, but I was born into, grew up with it, and spent much of the early part of my marriage waving dh off to sea to fight it. It was in US interests then; less so now perhaps. I think the threat of MAD still hangs around and keeps the US on side. The Cold War never really stopped imo. Easier perhaps to pay for NATO as an insurance, rather than have to spend blood and treasure again rescuing it from its own folly as in WWII.

Trump is weakening NATO by being as you say 'undiplomatic' he will push allies away. NATO has been a strong and solid ally but other alliances are being built with countries that don't have a bully in charge. The only way Trump would push Allies away is if he shut the US wallet, and withdrew US troops from the RAP etc. That isn't going to happen. Trump has a very valid point that has been made for decades about the lack of defence investment etc by some Allies (Germany is one of the worst offenders here, as is Belgium. Perhaps they think having NATO HQ in Brussels and SHAPE in Mons is their contribution!).

I think the issue with a consensus about anything is that it then becomes the orthodoxy and it cannot be questioned. We need to question how we fund the Welfare state and what it is for. We need to look at what the NHS does, is there another model that could work better? Look what has happened with the so called consensus on EU membership..it's been questioned, torn apart, and those who don't like that are fighting tooth and nail to overturn the referendum result by keeping us shackled to the EU.

I'd like to see businesses paying a living wage so that government isn't propping up their wages bill with tax credits. Isn't that another form of state aid that is supposedly banned by the EU?

Politically, I grew up in the 70s, and so have always been a Tory, since watching Red Robbo rant on his soap box at British Leyland. I used to wonder who ran the country when one saw the union leaders disappear into No 10 for beer and sandwiches with Harold Wilson on the News.

I think there is far too much of what Juncker does at play in politics:
'When it becomes serious, you have to lie.'

'I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates'

On the UK wanting a referendum on the Lisbon treaty: ' Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?'

On French referendum over EU constitution:
“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”

On the introduction of the euro:
"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

On eurozone economic policy and democracy:
“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”

The Liberal consensus isn't honest if you look at the quotes above. I'd far rather politicians treated us like adults and stopped having secret dark debates. The Swiss model seems instructive and is direct democracy; but I think the UK might not be able to make it work. I think that politicians that are conviction politicians are a rare breed now, apart from exceptions like Frank Field, and that many forget just whose votes put their arses on a nice well paid padded Westminster bench.

I also think the disconnect between the governed and the governing is the widest I have seen it in my lifetime. If that's where a liberal consensus leads us, then it needs to change.

pusspuss9 · 18/01/2019 16:48

Mousse - I meant on the subject of immigration UK doesn't have any influence in Germany.

pusspuss9 · 18/01/2019 16:54

agree with what you say scary. I watch quite a few EU parliament debates on youtube and you're spot on with Junker!

scaryteacher · 18/01/2019 16:55

I think waspsnest is bang on the money. You need to add that we have trying to influence the EU for 40 odd years now and it hasn't really worked. It's time to cut our losses and leave.

In the 20th century we fought to help other countries when we could have run away. We had to fight otherwise we would have been under Hitler's boot as well. Again, Juncker addresses this: 'The Europeans have to be grateful for so many things Britain has brought to Europe, during war, before war, after war, everywhere and every time, but now they have to pay.” It's the money innit?

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 17:02

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact meant NATO didn't have as visible an enemy. To weaken something does not mean to destroy it. NATO still plays a valuable role.

The US funded and funds NATO because it wants to. If it thought it could walk away it would. Complaining that other countries won't pay for the foreign policy the USA wants is pointless.

In terms of what WW2 cost the USA, blood yes and respect for that. Economically the USA benefited massively from the war.

I'm glad you can speak confidently about what Trump will and won't do I don't think even his closest advisors know what he is doing from one minute to the next.

If you think it is the liberal consensus that leads to the "disconnect between the governed and the governing" you need to read some history. It is politicians and politics that leads to the disconnect - it was ever thus.

Quick point about overturning the referendum result. There were electoral irregularities if it had been a binding referendum it would have had to have been rerun.

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 17:07

We had to fight otherwise we would have been under Hitler's boot as well

Nope - there was genuine cabinet level discussion about seeking a peace deal. Overtures were made by Germany - possibly linked to Hess and his flight to the U.K.

We could have walked away - I have little time for Churchill but this was undoubtedly down to his determination to fight.

scaryteacher · 18/01/2019 17:35

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact meant NATO didn't have as visible an enemy. I don't think Russia has ever been anything other than visible. Very silly to discount Russia at any stage of its recent history.

The US funded and funds NATO because it wants to. If it thought it could walk away it would. Complaining that other countries won't pay for the foreign policy the USA wants is pointless.
If the US didn't fund NATO, do you really think that European nations would step up to the plate? I'm surprised, but heartened that the US hasn't already walked away completely, or slashed the budget. We are sheltered under the nuclear umbrella they provide, and I for one am glad of it. I think that the Allies like Germany who don't hit the mark on their defence spend, should step up, especially given their geography.

If you think it is the liberal consensus that leads to the "disconnect between the governed and the governing" you need to read some history. It is politicians and politics that leads to the disconnect - it was ever thus. The Politicians are the ones buying into the liberal consensus though. You need a dialectic, preferably a Hegelian thesis, antithesis and synthesis to move things forward. We seemed to be stuck in the thesis point from 1997 onwards imo.

Quick point about overturning the referendum result. There were electoral irregularities if it had been a binding referendum it would have had to have been rerun. It was binding. Questions to be asked on the govt propaganda spend, which was clearly biased towards Remain. I am curious as to why Soros feels the need to have his fingers in the UK pie on this one?

A peace deal with a dictator Mmm. That worked well for those countries around Russia post WWII didn't it? Do you see those pigs flying overhead?

Moussemoose · 18/01/2019 19:07

"it was binding"

No it wasn't. In the U.K. all referenda are advisory. Even the Scottish independence referendum which had commitments bound in to it was not binding.

Constitutionally and legally the referendum was not binding to say otherwise is wrong.

Vote leave broke election law if the election was binding (and it wasn't) it would have been declared void.

The potential peace deal with Hitler is a historical fact. The debate in cabinet is documented.

Your refusal to accept of acknowledge documented fact discounts your other points.

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