My son is very cheeky to Judo Sensei every week, what can I do.

[StayAtHomeDadEC]

My son loves Judo, he does it at home, he remembers the techniques, he never missuses it and he was brave enough to stop a boy bullying another boy in an incident at school, largely because of his judo.

My only quandry is what to do about the fact that he is very cheeky and messes about at training. He is 8 and throughout training he is normally grinning like a Cheshire cat, that in itself is fine and I'm happy that he's so happy. The problem is that when sensei speaks, my son talks over him, adds his own cheeky comments and gives some silly answers. Sensei is a volunteer who does tuition for free and he spends half the lesson dealing with my son and 1 other student. The strange thing is that my son is also able to give the Japanese names for most techniques and to demonstrate them so he is bright enough to do very well. Once he has learned a technique, which he often does quickly, he then mucks about, falls over for no reason making fake fainting noises, rolls around being silly instead of getting up to practice again, he wastes half his training time. The other judo students get annoyed and the better ones try to avoid him at all costs and can be seen sighing when asked to pair with him.

My question is, without threatening to stop taking him, what can I say or do to make him show an interest, show some respect and do his best judo? He is 8 and responds well to reward systems (but this has failed as judo is an hour so he forgets about the reward). He is almost completely unable to listed to a lecture and I have done social stories with him on judo (he's high functioning autistic).

snitzelvoncrumb: Each class has about 5 techniques, often related to each other. The students watch a demonstration and then practice in pairs. When practicing in pairs, students takes turns at throwing each other. They should stand up asap and do the throw again. My son doesn't always stand up he rolls on the mat, the other student is waiting patiently and is missing their chance to practice.

I am convinced now, he's missing a lesson unless he improves. The cheek is intermittent and it's more of the form of giving silly answers but ultimately, it's not correct dojo etiquette or indeed any etiquette so be silly.

I'm finding it really disturbing that you are letting the school off the hook about the bullying. They can and should be doing a lot about this. Their supervision needs to be adequate to keep kids physically safe. There are also a number of preventative and proactive approaches they need to take when bullying is a problem.

I'm also finding it disturbing that you feel that your son using martial arts on anyone who bullies him is an acceptable way of dealing with the issue.

BlackCatSleeping: I suppose my son has 1 very good lesson to 2 lessons where he messes about a bit. Some bad lessons lead to exclusion. I'm fed up tinkering around and celebrating 1 good lesson, he can be polite in every single lesson or miss out...

Frosty66611: Yes I can see you point about the disruptive children being disliked. That's why he's been hit which in turn is why he does judo. If I teach him to conform and to try hard, he'll be liked. It's a lesson he needs, I have to be cruel to be kind :-)

I've got two teenagers, one ASD, one possible (won't be pursuuing diagnosis for the younger one, both very bright). I've been trying to think back to mine at that age. I'm not sure that the "telling off" will be getting through to your son.

With my daughter I tended to hear retrospectively about how rude she could be, with my son in particular there were frequently times when he either couldn't understand why he was in trouble, or was quite oblivious to the fact that he was in trouble at all!

Despite their intelligence, I have sometimes had to simplify things down a lot to deal effectively with my children. Really clear expectations and clear boundaries - something I'm not very good at. (I do some individual music teaching too, and have slowly learned that I need to be a little stricter with a couple of students until they understand how my lessons work.) Both of them benefitted from activities that put them in clearly structured environments. The younger one could be easily wound up by others too ...

I think you've had some great suggestions, maybe have a chat with the teacher once you've worked out what you want to do, so that you can implement the "new rules" together. I like the sound of "any messing around" = you come and sit with me for 5 minutes (or whatever), then 2 or 3 strikes = go home. You will need to discuss it in advance with your son, and remind him at the start of the lesson and again when you need to remove him. Good luck!

Tbh your DS doesn't sound like a monster. Have I understood correctly that the sensei hasn't approached you with concerns? If so, then chill. His job is to teach lads martial arts, some of those boys will act like little dicks at times. He's got it. They are supposed to be zen, they can rise above an 8yo boy being a PITA - no response may sometimes be the best response to minor naughtiness, and they learn it won't get them attention, but performing well does. He won't be the only one. I wouldn't do anything tbh, unless the sensei says anything.

TopicalUseOnly: I know my son and I know he's a misfit who can get picked on at times, he is not a bully.

If a child only ever uses martial arts in defence then it's good for them to a learn. In 3 years I have never seen or heard of my son threatening another child, in that respect he has learned judo etiquette.

Bullies don't learn their lesson when a message is sent to their parents. Have you ever seen bullying and thought to yourself that the bully needs a ticking off via a message to their parents a week after the event?

Of course the other side of the coin is for my son to learn to socialise and be likeable. That is what he's going to learn when I do a social story and of course back it up with missing a lesson or being excluded instantly for 5 minutes.

I can't speak for how your son's autism will affect things, but I used to teach karate to this age group (5-8) - any talking out of turn/"cheekiness" would be punished with push-ups/laps/sitting in a particular stance for a minute. That was standard practice in martial arts settings for children and (if need be) older teens, because the discipline side of things is critical to the sport. I no longer teach but see similar in the classes I attend.

EssentialHummus: Thanks, I do martial arts myself and would obviously never dream of giving cheek. Even chit chat before the class starts is stopped the moment sensei steps onto the mat or even glances at us before he gets on. It's not being strict and there's punishment that I know of, it's simple etiquette show to a person who has spend decades learning a skill so that they can teach you.

I have perhaps been too slow in expecting my son to be moving in the that direction.

My ds has ASD dx, and also does martial arts. I agree with lots of the advice you've been given:

1. Have a chat to the sensei - say you are conscious that ds is disrupting other's practice time, and not behaving according to the dojo rules in terms of respect. She what s/he says as a start point, as it is their lesson - and from what you say, they may be holding back as they understand that your child's autism creates extra challenges.
2. I would ask the sensei to help you develop some very clear, written behaviour rules - make sure your ds learns these, and that you and the sensei are in agreement on what the rules are, and what the consequence of misbehaviour is (in ds' class, they have press-ups; then sitting to one side; then longer exclusion as others have said). I think as others have said it will be important that these consequences are immediate, and always followed through on. Our sensei is the gentlest calmest person I know ... but he has a complete sense of power...
3. I would think a bit about what is driving your ds' behaviour , and how to manage those elements - so for example, the rolling on the mat thing - does he like the sensation/could this be a sensory issue? Might the sensei be in agreement to your ds coming along early and having a good old roll to get it out of his system, then once in the class, any rolling is a warning?

“His job is to teach lads martial arts, some of those boys will act like little dicks at times.”

Boys will be boys, eh?

Broken11Girl: I have far too much respect for the other students, the sensei and the ongoing enthusiasm of this class to let my son be in the bottom 2 students in terms of behaviour. No other students are even close to my son and this 1 other boy who is not my concern but who is cheeky. As others have pointed out, my son may even learn how to fit in better and this will help him in every aspect of life.

fanomoninon: Thanks, he is very sensory seeking, yes. That's why he loves judo. There's another class before his class and anyway I don't think it would help as he is capable of listening and following instruction. In my judgement he needs encouragement, understanding and as many have pointed out, the ultimate threat of exclusion.

Before his last grading he was a perfect student for a few weeks! I mean the best in the class. He knows that he doesn't want to be graded (watched) and not be at his best. I think he needs a gentle reminder that there are standards and his behaviour is being assessed at every lesson.

What you need is a SENsei.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

I feel your pain. DS has ADHD and frequently mucks about when attending a group for his hobby. The adults involved are incredibly patient with him, they can probably see how much he loves his hobby, even though he struggles to stay focused. It has helped him so much with social skills, concentration and motor skills and boosted his self esteem so although I've come to saying "never again" I'd be very reluctant to do so. I do give him "time outs" if he is being daft when he should be hobbying.

TopicalUseOnly: I just read your point about letting the school off the hook regarding bullying. We haven't. I spoke with the teacher who hadn't seen anything but agreed that something probably had taken place. There were 2 incidents, both over 3 years ago and we saw my son being excluded by his peers. He gets social help now and the school have helped.

My point is that bullying is usually not seen by an adult when there are 600 noisy children in a playground. I'm not saying my son is going to use judo at the drop of a hat, I'm saying he's not scared of them and I have not heard of a bullying incident since he started judo.

KingLooieCatz: SENsei, lol, mixing Japanese with British education acronyms is a very niche joke. You have reminded me, my son responds well to humour, I'll use humour in his social story but all seriousness (and fairness) if I have to exclude him.

How wonderful that your son has such aptitude & interest in judo.
But something is going wrong. In similar situations when my own son with ASD acts in disruptive or disrespectful ways it can be difficult to pinpoint the reason for his behavior. You are best equipped to figure the root of this out rather than the sensei as you know him best. Is there a possibility it is too long for him to sustain attention?
Does he already know either in theory or practically a lot of what is being taught & is actually bored in parts?
Is it a skewed learned social thing where he thinks it is his role to be ‘funny’ & ‘entertaining’? Or something else.
You could try visually displaying the problem. Written words & rough cartoon type pictures works for my son. Then ask him for ideas to try to find solutions together for a win win outcome for himself, sensei & other class members.
It would be such a shame to stop his practice.
I use a book called ‘how to fill a bucket’ that helps my son imagine visually the impact of his actions on others.
Good luck.

duchesswigtower: "How full is your bucket", I might get that book. Yes, he is trying to be the class clown. For too long I have not done enough because I know my son puts his hand up and asks sensible questions when most 8 years are not brave enough. I don;t want to change that as it's something even secondary school students often don't get. I do want to stop the silly questions and the talking out of turn though. His energy is great when channelled in the right direction.

Hi OP It could be worth trying visual aids in situations like this (I find visual aids very effective with my DS8 who has ASD, his brain processes visual aids a lot more effectively than speech/talking) so the use a red card/stop symbol to be shown the moment he starts messing about could help stop the negative behaviour.

My DS also has autism and struggles with wanting to be the centre of attention and be the funny one all the time. When he was younger I used to just pull him out of whatever class as soon as he started causing trouble. I told him beforehand that I would be doing it, not because I was angry or because he was in trouble but because it was a sign that he was losing concentration and wasn't able to cope with the class. I reassured him that he would be able to self-regulate better as time went by but at the current time he was developing a habit of being annoying as a way of fending off boredom and I wanted to break that habit.

It did help, although tbh he still has huge issues with concentration and impulse control that has become even more of an issue now that he's a teenager (five suspensions last term ). However for the things that he really enjoys (sports mostly), he has learned to control the attention-seeking behaviour during the dull bits in order to be allowed to continue.

I am a bit concerned about being on the side of the lesson holding up red and yellow cards. Sensei does have control of the lesson and although many are saying he should be quicker to dish out the exclusion, squat thrusts etc, he does deal with it to a reasonable degree. If sensei acts with quicker exclusions (which he has done in the past when I asked him to) then he will retain all the attention on him and his lesson and that will be better than me flashing cards and getting all of his students watching me and my card system instead of the lesson.

Op- you said in your first post that the sensei spends half the lesson dealing with your ds and one other boy and the other kids are getting annoyed. But you seem now to be saying that it’s not that bad and the sensei is managing it well. Which is it?

I think an hour sounds too much for him. I wonder if there was some way of speaking to the sensei about which are the quieter classes, or if there were any classes that would be more suitable, or even if there was a way that he could do half of the class and go.
I do sympathise. I have had to stop classes with mine because of this sort of behaviour. Its so hard to work out that in some instances, being silly makes people laugh and then they like you, but in others, you cant be silly at all, or you can be silly at some points, but not too much. Its actually a pretty complicated social rule.

That's really not what I said, BertrandRussell I perhaps should have referred to rather than boys, sue me.
I was merely suggesting that OP was perhaps worrying overly about standard mild misbehaviour, which she now seems to have decided is the case.

In my opinion punishing someone with ASD for behaviour that is related to their social difficulties is possible discrimination. Would you punish a child with a bad leg for failing to keep up physically? I'm not saying all his bad behaviours are due to ASD, he is only 8 and as his mum I am sure OP will be able to tell the difference most of the time. But lets not forget the effect on his self esteem if he is constantly punished for something he struggles with. He is a bright boy OP says and he is going to start noticing more and more that he has problems socially and if the adults around him are often being negative about his behaviour problems and giving him a lot of punishment he will come to judge himself by those standards and feel bad about himself.