How to convince DP we don't need to fly on holiday?

[AdultHumanFemale]

A few days ago DP received an invitation for the whole family to go and visit his friend who has recently moved to an old farm house by the sea in a southern European country. I am naturally grateful for the invitation, but:
We have recently committed to making some lifestyle changes to support the environment, and flying is definitely something we have both agreed ought to go. We don't fly a lot anyway, so not a massive ask.
DP has now gone all #makingmemories on me, and is going on about how it will be great for the DCs to have a continental adventure.
I can't seem to get through to him with the very same arguments which made him decide only earlier this year that it would be a positive, life-affirming choice to avoid flying. I am exasperated, he's coming up with some corkers, such as "If we don't get on that plane, some other family will..." and "We can just go greener in other areas of our lives this year." He's a bright guy, but seems to have had a brain transplant.
What can I say to convince him that we don't need a foreign holiday at the expense of the planet?

Ferries pollute too don’t they?

I absolutely agree about everyone doing a bit and not evangelizing it to everyone. I just felt that when I read op post about looking at how bad cars were that was a concern of hers too. There’s plenty right about considering our environmental impact of our lifestyle choices but if you were to look at the impact of every choice it really could become a guilt ridden and anxiety inducing exercise.

Is you dh on board with being as eco aware as you? And making sacrifices and changes which reflect that concern? It doesn’t strike me that he is and I think that is the bigger issue.

Yes ferries of course do pollute, but estimated CO2 output of 0.12kg per passenger kilometre vs 0.35kg equivalent for flying. So almost two thirds less.

Become vegan for 3 months, that will off set your carbon footprint (and then some) for the flight. Or just stop being a martyr and fly!

Well it depends how you do it surely sosad. Becoming vegan and eating loads of avocados which use ridiculous amounts of water to grow or eating food full of palm oil or exotic fruit and veg isn’t really going to help.

But genuinely why do you see someone as having principals as being a martyr? I can’t imagine she’s walking around wearing a T-shirt saying ‘I don’t fly, tell me I’m awesome’. She’s just made a decision with her dh not to fly. Same way if people go vegan they’re not (generally) being martyrs. They’ve just made a lifestyle decision based on their values.

It's discouraging the number of people who see trying to do the right thing and having principles as 'being a martyr' or 'virtue signalling.' If you're trying to reduce your carbon footprint then what are you actually supposed to do?

That aside, OP have you considered sidestepping the environmental arguments and pointing out that flying is generally shit but travelling by train is an exciting adventure?

I don't tend to feel guilty about non-eco decisions I make, as I know we can all only do what we can do, and we can't be perfect all the time. I let others do as they please and don't evangelise.

Except, apparently, when it comes to your own husband who you seem unable to forgive or accept.

There is no other way to travel 2000 odd miles for 20 quid. None.

In his shoes I'd be totally happy to not fly, provided you paid for whatever form of transport we did take.

Also, while taking trains might be "an adventure" it also eats days out of your holiday, which may be something your DH doesn't want, given he doesn't see these people every couple of months. Your children will likely get very bored.

12 hours of train vs 2 hours of flight and 10 hours of relaxation/fun for a tenth of the cost seems like a no-brainer to me.

Also if you're driving then you're adding far more pollution to the air than if you fly because that plane was going anyway, and your car would otherwise have been sat at home turned off for a week or so, rather than burning 4000 miles worth of petrol.

By all means, plan to fly less than you have done previously. Likewise, eat less meat than previously and take more public transport than previously. But don't forbid flying, driving, or eating meat completely, unless both of you are equally on board with it.

I mean, how would you like it if he insisted on some environmental practice that you personally didn't want to do e.g. never having the heating on and just wearing jumpers and coats all the time?

You say DH is hypocritical but then like others have saud it's your broodiness that amde you have two kids. It's too late now for you to get all high and mighty about him going back on his green morals when you amde a decision that has had a much bigger impact on society and the enviroment by havjng children. So in fact you're the hypocritical one and ifi was the DH i would be getting on the flight and then taking multiple flights around the world as i start divorce proceedings tbh

If you're trying to reduce your carbon footprint then what are you actually supposed to do?

Farming is the biggest producer of CO2. Not flying. Not palm oil. Farming.

Dont have kids

I’m totally on your side, OP. And I think all this argument that ‘industry is worse’ (why do you think Shell and Exxon produce emissions if not to extract fossil fuels ???) or ‘farming is worse’ is ridiculous. Does that mean no one takes any action against climate change? Because there is always something worse?

I’d look at trains and ferries.

I can never understand people who want to sacrifice all the pleasures of life for the sake of pointless gestures of righteousness.

You go right ahead; I'll do the opposite.

Not so much "had a brain transplant", but rather realising that his being all eco-idealistic has suddenly crashed into doing what he wants to do.

Train's worth a look but it really depends where from and to. London area to French/Italian Riviera? A plane's gonna be four hours what with check in and waiting around, the train would be ten but more comfortable and you won't be departing at stupid o'clock. Up north in England to southern Spain/Portugal or further? Yeah, train's not going to be so viable then.

As for the destination, we are both curious about it as he's set up a fairly sustainable farm in a remote location.

Ironic

I'm with you OP. We have avoided flying ever since our DCs were born for environmental reasons and have plenty of lovely holidays. I don't think you are being a martyr - obviously you can't save the planet single handed but if no one ever did anything different nothing would ever change.

The other good thing about trains is that you can't book till closer the date so will have a better idea about what's happened with Brexit etc.

I would opt for trying to convince your DH on the basis that you will presumably saving on the accomodation as you are staying with a friend so can afford to spend a bit more on travel. Then look at trains including the option to do an overnight sleeper train for part of the route.

It will be more expensive than flying and take longer but it's a great way to see a lot of the countries you are travelling through and a different experience for your DC.

I second the Man in Seat 61 website - loads of helpful advice.

The majority of responses on this thread sums up exactly why the planet is heading towards disaster.

We are all, and I am just as guilty as the rest of you, far too selfish at the end of the day to sacrifice our own non-essential luxuries to save the world we live on from dying.

I wonder if we will be the only species that has brought about its own exinction or whether there are others? We must be the only species to do it wilfully and in full knowledge of what we are doing yet not caring enough to avert it.

It can seem pointless when you are the only one making the effort eco wise.
For 20 years I have stuck to a policy of never buying imported, out of season foods. So no salad in winter, none of your air freighted beans or blueberries.
As the years go by I see more not less of these products and the demand for them has obviously increased.
I give up. I now indulge in French beans all year round

Can you get ferry to northern spain

I can never understand people who want to sacrifice all the pleasures of life for the sake of pointless gestures of righteousness.

I can never understand people, who know that our lifestyles are causing irreversible damage to wildlife and the environment but can't be bothered to make even the smallest amount of effort to do anything about it because apparently their right to a foreign holiday trumps everything.
Of course a single person not flying doesn't make much of a difference, but if lots of people individually make that decision we can make difference.

i wouldnt personally give up flying, but if OP and her dh have had a big discussion about not flying, and came to the conclusion together, then it seems a bit weird to just then decide to fly without checking out non flying alternatives straight away. What was the point of the conversation then?

Some of the responses since yesterday morning are a bit Luckily, the prospect of being ridiculed for trying to do this one tiny thing for the planet doesn't bother me.
Ink , DP certainly does appear to be on board. In fact he has really gone for it in other areas we discussed, such as cutting out meat (though was probably 80% vegetarian already) and not buying fruit and veg wrapped in plastic. If anything, he's the lentil weaver out of the two of us. I really respect his efforts and the way he has organised his life (not just since the most recent discussions, but for years) to reduce his impact on the environment. To him, it is just part of being a responsible dad. I may have to concede that flying might be the thing he isn't willing to give up, and just celebrate the fact that we're both doing what we can in our own way. Tiscold I don't recall calling him a hypocrite probably because it took me 3 attempts to spell it just now just said I was disappointed that he'd gone back on something I thought we'd agreed.
The ferry is a good idea too, we're not a million miles away from a ferry port, so will look into it.

I'd do some research into how you could travel (by train/byferry & train) and see what stopovers you could visit en route. I'm thinking could you add in a day in Paris/Rome/Barcelona etc

We went to Malta by train recently. It was a fantastic journey!

For those who say 'the plane is going anyway':

I would suggest either getting the train, although it's likely to be much more expensive and take longer, or take this trip but then reduce flying as much as possible afterwards.