DS4’s early waking is destroying us all.

[ZaraZebra]

DS is 4.5 and has never been a brilliant sleeper. His ‘normal’ wake up time seems to be 4.45am, but when the clocks go back in October he starts waking at 3.45am - and his body clock doesn’t ever reset. We had a whole winter of this last year.

He wakes regularly at 3.45am for the day, and will not be persuaded to go back to sleep. He shares a room wth his older brother and will often wake him. Older DS has mild SEN, and is particularly affected by sleep deprivation, so this is particularly upsetting.

So if we leave him in his room he wakes his poor brother.
If we whisk DS out of there, he wakes the baby. Who then normally wakes DS1.
If we reluctantly take him into the living room, he wakes our neighbour.

He appears v awake, not tired. Just ready for the day - at 4am. But he screams bloody murder if we leave him.

I’ve asked the HV for help in the past. She suggested an earlier bedtime, so he now goes to bed between 6-6.30pm, which has helped in that we can now get to bed earlier ourselves. But nothing has changed his early wake up.

We have also tried: no screens after 4pm; no sugar; milky porridge for supper; enforced hour in the garden.

We’ve mentioned it to Drs in the past who have laughed. But it’s not funny, particularly as it affects DS1. People have often laughed over the years that he would sleep more once he went to school, but he hasn’t.

Sorry this is so long, but I’m desperate. Any advice? Is there anything medically that can be done?
Thanks

I presume it’s just luck on our part but we don’t do anything at all to start the day until 7. No tv or interaction. No food until 8am. I think it might have helped.

Later bedtime. My DC we're going to bed at 8 PM at that age.

A light antihistamine to zonk him out the first couple of nights so that his body clock resets to sleeping through the night.

A clock by his bed so he can tell time when he wakes and punishment if he wakes anyone else up before 6 AM. Yes, he is old enough to understand this.

No breakfast of any kind until 6:30 AM. No milk, no nothing. You want his metabolism to adjust to not eating before so he doesn't wake up hungry.

To me there is a simple solution. Put him to bed later. 8pm bedtime, sleeps 10 hours, up at 6am. He will take time (don't just do it for a few days, stick with it). Yes he will be an overtired mess at first but he will sleep longer once he's adjusted.

I come from a culture where bedtime is no earlier than 9pm. Children sleep until 7-8am at least. They need 10-12 hours, you should work around that. I hope it works.

Is he at school yet? Just wondered if a school routine makes a difference.
I agree he needs a later bedtime. Maybe a heavier duvet? If you reconfigure the bedrooms can you get him a new pillow or blanket or something to tell him "ooh look your bed is going to be so comfy now to help you to sleep longer". And I agree a clock as well. If only a clock radio alarm and put a piece of paper by it with an acceptable time to make a noise? I had 2 early risers and they still are early birds but are older now so just come downstairs and entertain themselves. And maybe a trip to the GP to ask for help. He sounds like he needs training/meds to sleep through the night. I assume he doesn't have a little nap at all? And blackout blinds and linings for the summer.
Huge sympathy OP I totally lost my mind through the years of sleep deprivation it was horrendous for us.

He needs massive consequences for waking the whole house up.
Ds3 woke early and was shown how to use the TV +remote.
Simple.

Can he be in a room without the other 2? I think that's your first thing and totally agree he is old enough to understand that it is not allowed to continue. I think no interaction or very limitedduring the night other than, it's still nightie everyone needs to sleep. Once you take him into the living room it's like you are allowing the day to start. He needs to know it is the time to stay in bed.

Thanks all. Still reading, still thinking. Feeling a bit more hopeful anyway. Will show this thread to DH too.

I agree that trying a later bedtime is a good idea.

I have to admit that when my dc woke at 5am every morning (and I was often only getting home from work after midnight) that I used to leave their tablet on their bedside table along with a drink and some brioche. I realise this is not brilliant parenting, but helped me stay sane for a bit (6am was much better that 5am).

What about an extremely Late bedtime one night like midnight or 1am. If he's still asleep by his usual Time wake him up maybe at 6am/7am and have a really exciting fun filled tiring day. Maybe he will need the sleep so wake up at a reasonable time the next morning and carry that routine on. Just a suggestion.

Lots of sympathy here - I had the opposite problem a DD who couldn’t sleep till 11pm ish and was constantly sleep deprived. We saw NHS sleep consultant who suggested all the usual sleep hygiene measures, 9pm bedtime listening to music, story tapes. Unfortunately it’s all training and routine related, no magic bullets.

To those suggesting melatonin, that induces sleep but doesn’t keep children asleep so unlikely to work in this situation.

DS1 has only ever needed 9 hours sleep - from a young age he would be in bed with us wide awake at 4.30 playing with his toys or ‘reading’ a board book while we tried to get back to sleep.

We soon realised that there was no point putting him to bed at 6.30 as he just didn’t need that much sleep. Once he was old enough to negotiate with we could explain he had to stay in his room and read quietly until 7, but he doesn’t go to bed until 9 and wakes up at 6.

you poor thing. I have no suggestions, just wanted to empathise.

I am not 100% sure a later bedtime would work as parents of many early risers will attest. Its your basic instinct to gradually move bedtime later and what actually happens for some people is your child gets less and less sleep as they don't seem to stay asleep at the other end! Its worth a really good try though.

I would probably focus on what he is screaming for? is it company, light, boredom? If you work on that, he may at least be quiet until its time to get up.

Also for those saying 'there will be consequences' I for one really struggle to think of consequences so suggestions of the consequences that you used that worked would be gratefully received.

IT sounds like he has a very rigid body rhythm and you need to disrupt it to reset it. Body rhythms can be based around digestion, getting hungry and needing to wee/poo. Getting tired and wakeful or sensitivity to light etc.

Since you at yout wits end, you could try to use a childrens medication containing diphenhydramine hydrochloride. It is an antihistamine that usually makes you sleepy. Benalin childrens night time contains it, but there might be other brands too. I would suggest you ‘lift” him for a wee at 11pm and then give him an age appropriate dose of a medicine and do that for a week, then reduce the dose by half for another week, then every other night for a last week. Then stop and see. Meanwhile get really good black out curtains, make sure nothing is beeping or flashing in his room in the early hours and try a fan for white noise.
Then change when you give him his main protein for the day, his digestion might be rousing him.

My DS is 5, goes to bed at 630-7 and has to be crow barred out of bed at 630 in the morning (when we have to be up for school) so some children do need 10 hours sleep and more!

The gro clock worked for us and a massive reward chart with one item she really wanted which was what the stars aimed for (a talking toy dog - horrific but she wanted it badly!)

Oh and white noise - all night every night; even at 5 years old..we have an iPad in her room just for this. She can't sleep without it.

Have you tried blackout blinds? Maybe it's the daylight waking him up? That's what it is with my girl x

Definitely not daylight waking him! It’s dark until after 8 here - he’s been up for 4 hours by that point!

Good idea about the white noise. We always used to use it but at some point he started to find it scary so we stopped. Will try again with it.

Ds2 has woken at 5.45 since birth, so while not as extreme, I sympathize with the efforts of trying to shift a waking time when it seems hard wired.

What worked for us was to put a mattress on the floor beside my bed that he could come into when he woke so he’d be close by. He went through phases of being afraid to be alone. After a while I stopped having a duvet and pillow in my room for him so that he had to bring his own. I think the extra effort he had to make gave him pause. Now the mattress is in his room so while he can come in, it’s a bit of hassle to organize.

He’s a real lark: wakes up ready to go. I need a couple of hours in the morning before I feel normal and find it very hard to take. And I function very very badly on broken sleep. Actually pointing this out to the dc made a difference to sleeping habits. They know that getting pancakes or cooked eggs is out of the question if Mum doesn’t get a good nights sleep. I think something about it being a natural honest consequence resonated more than giving them contrived rewards.

Not really anything helpful here, but just adding to the sympathy generally

If he doesn't like white noise, what about something like rain sounds?

I wonder whether the 4am thing is habit from summer and he doesn't manage to change his habit in the darker months? In which case blackout blinds could make a real difference.

If all else fails then just know that in the not too distant future he’ll be old enough to get up by himself, quietly put the tv on. I’d maybe work towards building his confidence to do this. Set up his breakfast the night before (just something simple like a croissant and beaker of milk maybe) show him how to turn the tv on and give him huge praise if he can sit quietly until 5am. Make him a little early morning den/snug. A special spot just for him.

Our DS is an early bird, at 4/5years he was up at 4. He’s now 9 and still wakes between 5 and 6.

Prepared to get my head bitten off, but I'd order slow release melatonin online from abroad, or get a friend or relative to send it if you have any in America/Canada.

Does he nap during the day? 10hours is good but you just need to try shift the times a wee bit. My ds is 1 and he was napping 3hours during the day and wakening at 4:30 so I changed it up a bit.

Awake -6:30am
Bottle -7am
Breakfast-8:30/9ish
Nap-9am/9:30ish for 1hour (I wake him)
10:30/11ish-toast
12:30/1ish lunch
13:30/2ish nap for 1hour 15min, dnt let him go past 15:30.
Then snack
16:30-dinner
6pm-rice pudding (think he's having a growth spurt as he's getting hungrier another reason for his early rising for bottle)
7pm/8pm -bed sleeps through to 6:30most time but can be between 6am-7am.

My dd1 didn't seem to need as much sleep as other people's kids - 10 hours and she was done. Your dc sounds much the same.

The health visitor's advice was a bit daft to be honest - you can't force someone to wake up later by putting them to bed earlier

If we'd put dd to bed at 6-6.30 she'd have been awake before 4.30am as well. Since we valued our sanity (and our sleep) her bedtime was 9-9.30pm. Right from the age of about 18 months onwards. We preferred to give up our evenings than be woken up in the middle of the night.

There's nothing for it OP - you will need to move bedtime to much later in the evening. It will probably take weeks for things to settle down, but they will. You'll also need a blackout blind.

How old is the baby? Could you swap so baby is in with ds1 and ds2 is in with you? It's so much worse that this is negatively impacting your older son, I feel for you. Ask for a referral to the community paeds, they may be able to help. A pp mentioned Sleep Scotland, if you're in England we do have practitioners but they can be a bit difficult to find and are often hidden away in specialist children's services. Go to your local children's centre (and the one for children with SEN) and ask if they have a sleep clinic, some will take self referrals and some are advertised more at specialist children's services but will accept children who don't have SEN.