DS4’s early waking is destroying us all.

[ZaraZebra]

DS is 4.5 and has never been a brilliant sleeper. His ‘normal’ wake up time seems to be 4.45am, but when the clocks go back in October he starts waking at 3.45am - and his body clock doesn’t ever reset. We had a whole winter of this last year.

He wakes regularly at 3.45am for the day, and will not be persuaded to go back to sleep. He shares a room wth his older brother and will often wake him. Older DS has mild SEN, and is particularly affected by sleep deprivation, so this is particularly upsetting.

So if we leave him in his room he wakes his poor brother.
If we whisk DS out of there, he wakes the baby. Who then normally wakes DS1.
If we reluctantly take him into the living room, he wakes our neighbour.

He appears v awake, not tired. Just ready for the day - at 4am. But he screams bloody murder if we leave him.

I’ve asked the HV for help in the past. She suggested an earlier bedtime, so he now goes to bed between 6-6.30pm, which has helped in that we can now get to bed earlier ourselves. But nothing has changed his early wake up.

We have also tried: no screens after 4pm; no sugar; milky porridge for supper; enforced hour in the garden.

We’ve mentioned it to Drs in the past who have laughed. But it’s not funny, particularly as it affects DS1. People have often laughed over the years that he would sleep more once he went to school, but he hasn’t.

Sorry this is so long, but I’m desperate. Any advice? Is there anything medically that can be done?
Thanks

I agree that at 4 he should know there are consequences if he screams at 4am, he's not a toddler!
My ds was an early riser but at 4 he knew that it was unacceptable to wake the whole house up and had a routine that included looking at books etc quietly in bed and a set time that he was allowed to wake me (still ridiculously early but manageable!)
You must all be exhausted!

Will try to think about reconfiguring bedrooms for a bit too. DH is v involved in this, perhaps he could go in with DS2. DS1 could go in baby’s room. Baby back in with me.

Yes it was scary waking my dd for a wee - the first few times she point blank refused then took ages to calm down! I’d have to list her out of bed and put her on the toilet and she would then go.

It’s worth trying it every day for a week.

I would also check things like the temperature of the room - if it’s worse in winter then he might be cold. The body temp drops at around 2/3am and if you’re cold it’s hard to warm up again so you end up waking up fully - so we used to pop a blanket on ours at our bedtime.

He's going to bed far too early and if he's screaming and waking everyone up he's old enough to get told off for that and have consequences.

Lack of sleep is a nightmare

Ask your GP for a referral to a community paeadiatrician. Sounds very similar to my kids sleeping patterns which are classed by paed as ‘significant sleep disorder’ and needed melatonin prescribed to help gradually bring body clock back in line. Not a miracle cure and needed some tweaking in terms of dosage and times of administration but it was the only thing that worked.
If you are in the U.K., as far as I know, only a comm paed can prescribe melatonin for this, not a GP, hence needing to ask for referral. Waiting list may be long. Do tell GP everything you’ve tried and how all the usual things have not worked despite how consistently you’ve tried to apply them. Spell out the effects on your child and whole family.
I had 6.5 years of this with my eldest and 4.5 years with youngest so can empathise, it is really tough.
Obvs not qualified to do internet diagnosis tho so do start with gp (but ask for paed referral for melatonin)

Oh and yes, he might be waking up for a wee!

We take them to the toilet at around 11pm (before we go to bed) and I think that helps. My DH carries them in, they don't even wake up!

At age 4.5 he “screams bloody murder” if you leave him alone at 4am?

That’s a behaviour problem, not a sleep problem. He’s old enough to get told he can read a book, listen to a cd or watch a dvd with headphones on, but he’s NOT to wake anyone else in the house up - never mind screaming bloody murder!

Hes getting a LOT of sleep if he goes to bed at 6 30. You need to either go with that for now i think, or go hardcore for a few weeks and make it clear nobody's getting up. Would a tablet wprk with cartoons?

I synpathise, I had this for years and would cry looking out the window at all the dark houses, mine would be the only house with lights on.

Also I would push for melatonin as a matter of urgency, he will need a paediatric review wjich can be a 16 week wait, but in 6 mths you could all be sleeping.

I'd move your oldest into your room for a while so you can sleep train. Maybe a parent can sleep in his bedroom in order to remind him to behave in the morning!

Agree with the later bedtime. 10 hours sleep is OK. 8pm-6am maybe?
Maybe set the groclock for 4am at first and then move it forward by 10 minutes a day.
Reward staying in bed - get some pound land toys, wrap them, have a reward chart, initially let him get a present every day he stays in bed, then every three days, then every week.

I would come down like a ton of bricks on any bad behaviour in the morning - getting out of bed before the groclock or screaming are absolutely unacceptable and you must treat it as completely serious, total zero tolerance.

My 3 yo goes to bed at 9 pm for reference.

Annoyingly this seems a very common problem had a discussion with my HV when DS was 4 year's about it. Although she was actually helping me with another issue at the time. She didn't give me any great advice just confirmed how normal it was.

He's 8 now and still wakes at 5.45am on most days (used to be 5am or earlier when younger). Difference is he's now well trained to stay in his room to 6am then go downstairs on his own and be quite.

Later bedtime is a must, if we had put him to bed that early then yes he would have been up early. Bedtime has always been 7.30pm (Now 8pm), it maybe worth moving it half an hour at a time to make it less painful, and unfortunately it takes forever for this to change his wake up time. So we are some of those annoying parent's who don't really like our kids staying up late over the holidays. It just makes DS tired and grumpy, the odd late night is ok but not say a week or two during half term or Christmas. It just makes life miserable for everyone.

Rearranging rooms even temporary so you can sort this out may help. I think saying it's behaviour is a bit harsh as I'm sure DS seem to find being on his own for that long in the morning hard. Even though he shared with his sister (luckly she's a sound sleeper).

But I'd still have to get up with him early so he didn't wake everyone else up.

I agree you need to trial at 8pm bedtime. Our youngest has ASD and a heavier duvet (not necessarily a weighted blanket) was a game changer. She wore a vest and knickers because obviously it's warmer. She has an hour upstairs before bedtime just playing. No bath time because it got her over stimulated.

She used to sleep in two hour stints (2 hours asleep, 2 hours awake) - it lasted til she was 6 and we were dead on our feet and close to divorce so you have my sympathy.

Absolutely awful for you. No advice, but I feel your pain. I was like a zombie for 4 years. It was hell... nothing worked! The more I got upset about it, it seemed to affect my child and they knew it was an issue so it seemed to make it worse. In the end I accepted that this was how it was. I talked to other mums but they thought it was a couple of nights only. They did not grasp the longevity of the situation. You poor thing 💐

I agree this sounds like behaviour rather than sleep problem. If the gro clock stopped working is it because the consistency stopped and the crying/screamimg started working again? He's escalating his behaviour because that works, it gets a reaction from you and he gets all the morning attention...

Could something be waking him? Have you tried white noise? Ds had a fan running all night for years which helped loads as it muffled sounds. Blackout curtains?

What time do you put him to bed? The reason I ask is cos when I got back from India, my DS was waking up at 4am. So I kept him awake past midnight and then he went bed and didn't wake up until 8am, had an hours nap in the afternoon then went to bed again around 9pm. You've probably tried it already but let me know if you haven't! What a nightmare you must be shattered.

I've not read the full thread so apologies if someone has asked this....

Where do you live? There's an organisation called sleep scotland who offer support etc. I'm not sure if there's an English equivalent. X

Also at that age, him crying and howling doesn't sound like normal behaviour unless he is having nightmares. I would take him to see a doctor because you've mentioned your other DS has SEN, is it possible he also has SEN?

Depending on where you are, OP, The Insomniac Clinic may be able to help:

www.theinsomniaclinic.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_6rG-OfE3wIVxeFRCh3l2AgpEAAYASAAEgKZR_D_BwE

Thank you all, lots of things here to think about. I agree we probably need to try a later bedtime again. And a midnight wee. Eek.

We suspect that he wakes similarly early during the summer months, but it’s light so he feels safer is that makes sense. In the mornings he is always very awake, and pretty animated and scared/angry.

Grateful to hear from people who’ve been through similar (and survived!). He did briefly sleep a bit better about a year ago (hence the existence of DC3! ) but it only lasted about a month!

When you’ve tried shifting his bedtime later, how long have you tried for? Every night for a fortnight could click it in place.

I am no expert but we have recently turned a corner with both DS and DD who were waking at 4:45 every day for three months.

We had to stick rigidly to a later bedtime for two weeks plus but it did work....eventually

I think you need to think more about the fact that he’s screaming and waking everyone up - even the next door neighbours. There’s no reason for him to be doing this.

Would he feel safer if you made him a bed in your room? Or just with your DH? You could do that and leave him with a tablet/headphones and a night light. No waking anyone else until 6.

Does he have anything to say about why he wakes? Whqt if you make a game called 'noises I hear in the night' and see what he says.

What's the first thing he does when he wakes? Might give you a clue. For example, eats breakfast, drinks, wees...

Sounds very tough, you have my sympathy!!

Also: any chance he's cold, maybe throwing his quilt on the floor?

OP, my DD didn’t sleep through the night until she was five, by which time DS had come along, leading to seven years of broken nights.

I’m not sure you want to hear that, but on the plus side, I’d doubt I’d crack under sleep deprivation torture