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Is there a thread about the poor 5 week old baby yet? [warning, distressing content]

197 replies

thewinehasgonetomyhead · 14/12/2018 11:07

Standing in the kitchen with my two DD almost in tears:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-46565175

OP posts:
PortiaCastis · 14/12/2018 14:03

I don't think calling uneducated helps anything, the fact is the poor baby was murdered by a dog who possibly was jealous of the child or just went bonkers who knows, so it could have been a demented dog of any breed or social class owners it just simply should not have been anywhere near a 5 week old and that's the point

ADastardlyThing · 14/12/2018 14:06

Swipe I've had sbts all my life (only breed I would have) and I do not recognise any of what you have said.

Negative generalisations about the breed are probably easier to swallow than the truth that some people simply shouldn't have a dog, of any breed.

Swipetounlock · 14/12/2018 14:13

Well it's a fact that dogs homes are full of them, which must at least prove that they are a status dog that many people get and then find they cannot cope with.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Theweasleytwins · 14/12/2018 14:14

My inlaws have 3 dogs. A puppy mongrel, jack russell and a staffie. Would never leave my children alone with any of them. Even mil who loves the staffie more than her own son (dont blame her) would never leave the dogs alone

The staffie is the most placid and has never hurt my children (minus happy tail wags that accidentally catch them)

Jack russell however has knocked them over by being annoying and energetic

SummerGems · 14/12/2018 14:14

The statements that “any dog can turn at any time” and that you only need to go on to the dog house threads to see dogs who have attacked and when you get into the discussion it turns out there were signs all along are completely contradictory.

No, usually loving family pets with no history of aggression do not randomly turn and kill innocent children. They just don’t. However, there are often situations where an animal could be provoked into biting e.g. a small child who pulls a dog’s ears/tail or where the dog has previously shown signs of anxiety but where the owner has failed to notice them. These are not random, unprovoked attacks and people need to move away from the “any dog can turn at any time” statement because it’s not true.

Yes, any dog can bite under the right circumstances, and the reality is that we will likely never know what went before in this situation which led to this dog killing a tiny defenceless baby. perhaps the dog had previously been top dog of the house, the baby had come along and suddenly it had been anxious over its place being changed in the household. Perhaps the dog had shown anxiety before but the owners had failed to recognise the signs, and in their desparation to have the dog and baby have an amazing bond they had left them alone together resulting in this tragedy.

In almost all of these situations where a child is killed by a dog there are circumstances which could explain how it happened, and it is not as simple as that they were just left together. Sometimes it is because the child was visiting the household and the dogs were unused to children. Sometimes, as in this situation, it could because this was a new baby and the dog’s world has been changed. Either way these are not situations of the loving family pet having turned without any indication that this could happen.

That doesn’t mean you leave small babies alone with the dog, as for a dog, provocation could be as simple as a baby crying if the dog is already anxious.

The reason why labradors is higher in the list of dogs who bite is because labradors are more popular as pets. However it does need to be noted that staffies are exceptionally powerful dogs,and that while a lab may cause injury, a staff can kill much more easily.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that staffies need to be banned, and we always have these knee-jerk responses when something like this happens. But truth is that far more children are killed in cars than by dogs and yet there are no calls for banning the use of cars to drive babies under a certain age. While dog bites are not that uncommon, dogs of any breed killing a child is exceptionally rare, which is why these stories are always in the news wen they happen. You don’t see reports of car crashes in the news do you? That’s because they’re so common and the media couldn’t possibly report on all of them, yet there are no calls to ban cars....

bobstersmum · 14/12/2018 14:19

We have a dog, and dc. In my opinion, NO dog should be trusted with little ones. They're animals at the end of the day, you probably could trust 80% of them, but you shouldn't.

ADastardlyThing · 14/12/2018 14:22

"Well it's a fact that dogs homes are full of them, which must at least prove that they are a status dog that many people get and then find they cannot cope with."

I imagine only a statistician and researcher with access to more information than we could ever obtain could provide a theory as to why dogs homes are full of them.

My personal opinion is yes it possibly does come down to the general demographic who buy them and then chuck them out for whatever reason, and then people who buy into the negative opinion won't rehome them, thus keeping the homes full of them. Funnily enough though I have only ever seen a handful of knobheads with them (but even then their dogs are actually really lovely it's just they look....not lovely!), the other owners are like me with professional jobs or oap's

redsummershoes · 14/12/2018 14:24

staffies are big and powerful and usually lovely.
but they are sometimes kept by people who are not great a keeping pets. full stop. and an unhappy, badly treated pet in a home with stupid people lacking awareness is a recipe for desaster.

ADastardlyThing · 14/12/2018 14:24

And when I say they don't look lovely I mean the owners, not the sbt obviously! I think they are beautiful personally.

SaveKevin · 14/12/2018 14:28

I had a staffie, he was a soppy thing. I used to feel so sad when people would cross over the road from him. He was no threat and i made sure the harness & collar i chose made him look that way. I wouldn't have left him with children though, as i wouldn't any dog.

The dog that ended up biting my child was a badly trained golden retriever, there were 5 adults in that room and the retriever just went in a snap as the child toddled past. I didn't judge the dog, just the owner.

There was someone who posted (kitten something, sorry i can't scroll back up) that their dog always gets picked on by staffs, weirdly my staff always got picked on by dobermans. The only thing i can think of is dogs like people just take a dislike, maybe my dog (and her dog) give off a vibe when they see a certain type (because they've been attacked before).

I was hoping the staff status symbol pet thing had died down , staffs make wonderful pets, but like all dogs they have to be in the right hands. If your getting a dog as a status symbol then your not going to be the best owner.

NotExactlyHappyToHelp · 14/12/2018 14:39

Staffies are not the problem. Dogs are not the problem. Negligent owners are the problem.

I own a very powerful GSH x Collie dog. She could inflict more damage than a staffie if she wanted to but no one crosses the street when they see her coming or talks of her being banned.

We’ve had her since she was a puppy and when DS came along we put a lot of work into making sure they both knew the rules and that they were both safe. I used to take her to the toilet with me and leave DS safe in his Moses basket. She was not allowed to lie near DS or poke her nose into his pram or bouncer and DS was never allowed to get in her bed or touch her food etc.

I think dog ownership should be dependant on a license. I would happily pay fees, show proof of insurance and neutering and attend training/education classes.

KittensAndChristmasCake · 14/12/2018 14:50

Staffies are not the problem. Dogs are not the problem. Negligent owners are the problem.

Of course negligent owners are the problem but I still think if a negligent owner had a poodle for example, it wouldn't rip a baby apart, unlike a staffie. It happens time and time again.
That's not to say there aren't loads of lovely Sbts but in the wrong hands they are more dangerous than other breeds.

NotExactlyHappyToHelp · 14/12/2018 14:59

@KittensAndChristmasCake Yes that’s true. The damage inflicted could be less severe but not always. A JRT killed a baby in a town close to me.

Surely we should be looking at the bigger picture, making sure people who shouldn’t own dogs don’t. Not specific breeds. If staffies are banned or heavily sanctioned another breed will take their place.

nocoolnamesleft · 14/12/2018 15:11

The point of supervision is not to pull an attacking dog off, but to stop anything happening in the first place. For instance, a small child chasing a dog, prodding or even kicking the dog. A small child taking the dog's toys away or sticking hands in food. A small child who cannot recognise or heed a dog showing signs of stress (eg turning head away, tail between legs, yawning when not tired, showing whites of eyes, ears back and - as a last resort - growling).

Which if these behaviours exactly do you think a 5 week old baby would be developmentally capable of performing? Raising victim blaming to an artform there.

Ayogo · 14/12/2018 15:23

Of course negligent owners are the problem but I still think if a negligent owner had a poodle for example, it wouldn't rip a baby apart, unlike a staffie

Who said the staffies that killed young infants ripped them apart? I've (thankfully) never seen that much detail in a news report about a fatal dog attack.

I don't think the "power" of a breed is really relevant when it comes to small children. Poodles are fairly large and weigh somewhere between 20 and 30kg. They could easily kill a small child.

Ayogo · 14/12/2018 15:28

Which if these behaviours exactly do you think a 5 week old baby would be developmentally capable of performing? Raising victim blaming to an artform there

The thing with really young babies is that dogs are often not used to them (especially first borns in a family) and so they can be very wary of them or confused by them. Their crying, lack of eye contact or holding eye contact for a long time, the way they move or don't move, etc. can all be strange and stressful to a dog.

The dog is likely to feel reassured by the presence of a known adult in the room with them so less likely to respond defensively to these strange stimuli, and also the adult can see if the dog is exhibiting signs of stress and can then calm it down and remove the dog or the baby from the situation. If the dog and baby are alone, none of the above happens and you're more likely to have a dog behaving unexpectedly and dangerously.

poppy196 · 14/12/2018 15:34

Mumsnet please put a LIKE button in ...
when you have an issue like this would be so nice to agree with others with out needing to mention them in a comment.
On my 3rd staffy and definitely agree with others it's not the breed it's the lack of parenting in this case .
It could have been any breed but because it's a staffy people blame the breed not the dog .

Pisses me off so very much 😡

MamaLovesMango · 14/12/2018 15:46

Poodles could easily kill a child. They’re huge and every single one I’ve met has been a nippy little bastard. Although I’m sure there’s nice ones, I’ve been unlucky. As have many of you on this thread with SBTs.

poppy196 · 14/12/2018 15:46

Hope photo shows , grandson and his staffy .look away now if staffys scare you .

Is there a thread about the poor 5 week old baby yet? [warning, distressing content]
IsadoraQuagmire · 14/12/2018 15:47

Poor dogs Sad

GreatDuckCookery6211 · 14/12/2018 15:49

Poor dogs Isadora? Are you being goady on purpose or what? Angry

Swipetounlock · 14/12/2018 15:50

There seems to be a lack of knowledge on here about the different categories of dog and what they were originally bred for. Poodles are water retreivers. Jack Russels are rabbiting/ratting dogs so bred to bite onto small moving objects and shake them. Greyhounds are sight hounds with a strong chase urge. Staffies were bred to bite the noses of bulls in a baiting ring and hang on with all their might. Whatever the temperament of an individual dog, it has an innate prey drive, which has been selectively bred over the generations to strengthen whatever part of that drive suited the breed's purpose - eg chasing, biting, fetching. Staffies were bred to bite, that's why their jaws are strong. Sorry if you don't like that and love your own staffie.

MadisonAvenue · 14/12/2018 15:56

I've known some really wonderful Staffies and we come across some absolute beauties when walking our dog (we have a Collie X GSD) who play really nicely. Unfortunately we live in an area where a lot of people see the Staffie as a status dog and my dog has been attacked on a number of occasions by that breed, resulting in him needing vet attention a couple of times.

We're near to a branch of Birmingham Dogs Home and visit quite often to donate blankets, food etc and the majority of dogs that we see in there each visit are Staffies and it breaks my heart. It's got to the point that our vets had a sign on reception stating that they'll neuter any Staffie for free, regardless of the owner's financial status.

BobLemon · 14/12/2018 15:56

I wonder how many poodles have killed someone.

“Loving, really friendly, timid”

Is how the owner of the 2 staffies and 2 mastiffs that killed Jade Anderson described her dogs.

Ayogo · 14/12/2018 15:57

There seems to be a lack of knowledge on here

It seems REALLY strange that so many people calling other people out for being uneducated, ignorant etc. are displaying such ignorance themselves!

Yes, Staffies were bred to bait and bite large animals. But any that showed aggression to humans were either killed or certainly not bred from. Aggressiveness toward humans was removed from the genepool, not encouraged.

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