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Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed?

342 replies

Papergirl1968 · 28/11/2018 20:02

Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed? I thought about putting this under religion, but thought there’d be a wider range of views on chat.
I’m not religious any more (was raised Methodist) but the Christmas story is something I think about occasionally, usually when I’m singing carols to the cat Smile.
My own view is that they probably did exist, but I don’t buy the son of god thing. I’d hazard a guess that Mary got pregnant by Joseph when they were being intimate, even if they didn’t technically have sex. So she panicked and either invented or dreamed a convenient story about the angel telling her she was carrying the son of god.
I believe there’s evidence that they would have had to travel to Bethlehem - although not at Christmas - and that there was a bright star in the sky etc.
And I think Jesus may well have had children. Or maybe I just took the Da Vinci Code too seriously...
Would be interested to hear what others think.

OP posts:
roisinagusniamh · 30/11/2018 19:09

Nah.... littlemiss, anyone with a good heart does that.
Jesus was probably an unconventional type who would not want to be associated with what Christianity represents today .

nottakingthisanymore · 30/11/2018 19:10

Totally believe Jesus existed but the nativity story is probably made up and I don’t think he was the son of god. Just a nice bloke who was a bit deluded about his origin.

BertramKibbler · 30/11/2018 19:18

I feel genuinely quite saddened by how blithely people say quite contemptuous things about the central (human) people in my religion on this thread even though it’s to be expected given this is a British forum and the British are notoriously disrespectful to religion. I feel the same.

Mumsnet are always very relaxed about people criticising Christianity. You try doing the same about Judaism or Islam though...

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Philosophy & religion
gamerwidow · 30/11/2018 19:38

Mumsnet are always very relaxed about people criticising Christianity. You try doing the same about Judaism or Islam though...

That's not really true, you can't criticise Jews and Muslims just for being Jews or Muslims or assign certain characteristics or behaviours to all Jews and Muslims because that's racist.
It's fine though to say 'actually I think the idea of Moses parting sea is bollocks' or 'It makes no sense to me to think a picture of Mohammed is a big deal'

TheBossBaby · 30/11/2018 19:43

Zeitgeist is a good documentary Smile

pippitysqueakity · 30/11/2018 20:00

I’m sure you are right BertramKibbler. Please could you show some examples to underline the point?

BertramKibbler · 30/11/2018 20:16

I have numerous conversations with MN admins about it. Apparently criticising Christianity and discussing “sky fairies” is healthy debate and yet other posts on other religions get taken down quicker than you can say ‘report’.

Bechetdiagnosed · 30/11/2018 20:18

gamerwidow

I’ve seen posters refer to Christians as unintelligent because they believe in a sky fairy. That they must be deluded to believe such fantasy.

When I reported the posts to Mumsnet they were not deleted Hmm

gamerwidow · 30/11/2018 21:10

I’ve seen posters refer to Christians as unintelligent because they believe in a sky fairy
To be fair that’s an accusation that could be levelled at any religion though.
I don’t think people with faith are stupid but I don’t think their views are logical either.

PebbleDashed · 30/11/2018 21:15

What is it you're asking for, proof of the entire biblical nativity in exactly the traditional telling?

The bottom line with Mary is that Jesus, for whom there is a reasonable amount of evidence, had to have a mother. We can call her Mary as easily as not. On the subject of the father, there is a longstanding theory that he was a Roman soldier, as the Monty Python team had it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera
I do not believe in virgin births and think that all the fuss about Mary's virginity is down partly to language translation and partly to the Roman establishment's huge problem with women, which they passed on to their child the church.

I understand that there is also considerable evidence for the existence of James the Just, brother of Jesus (starter: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_brother_of_Jesus).

Accepting the historical lives of ancient figures does not mean we have to accept all the myths and fairy tales that have grown up around them, which in some cases have been taken up by an established elite and formed into a mandated religion to enforce social obedience.

IstanbulConstan · 30/11/2018 21:17

To be fair that’s an accusation that could be levelled at any religion though.
I don’t think people with faith are stupid but I don’t think their views are logical either.

To be fair Neo Lib think socialism is not logical and a socialist will view Tory ideology as not logical, it's not just religion.

That's why people are free to have their own philosophical and religious beliefs and why people object when others force an ideology on them they don't believe.

Fluffyears · 30/11/2018 21:21

I know two Christiansbwho claim to be intelligent but refuse to understand that people believe in other things. They are actually slightly thick but pretend to be superior in knowledge.

Its the fucking hypocrisy I can’t stand. All that opulence in churches and wealth held by the Vatican. The very man they claim to follow would be fucking appalled. His message was to share what you have with the poor. Churches should be simplistic not laden with gold and marble!

PebbleDashed · 30/11/2018 21:28

I've just been reading about the Cathars, a sect of Christianity that didn't like Church opulence. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism It wasn't part of Celtic Christianity or the monastic movements either. It's a shame, imo, that the Roman church won out against (and persecuted) the other more personal spiritual versions of Christianity, and it says a lot about us humans.

Brahumbug · 30/11/2018 21:33

Jesus teaching was nothing to do with being nice and sharing. It was all about devotion to god above everything else, including your family. As for Judaism and Islam, I have no problem in criticizing either of them. They are both appalling mysogynistic cults which no reasonable person should entertain for even a moment.

MulticolourMophead · 30/11/2018 21:36

I read this book a few years ago.

The theory is as plausible as any other about Mary.

Momasita · 30/11/2018 22:41

I feel happy saying I'm sure they did exist. I'm sure they did and stories and folk lore grew up about them. Of course I don't belive anything else about them.

I feel very comfortable saying that.
Isn't that wonderful.
However I would never dare to say that about Islam because fatwa, death sentences and extreme reactions have won. Sad.

Did anyone see the protest in Pakistan about the Christian blasphemer... Possys going house to house to track her down and no country wants to grant her asylum.

Momasita · 30/11/2018 22:43

fluff I couldn't agree more.
My dm was life long tribal Catholic whose df religiously 😝 put money into church hat every week... When she finally saw the Vatican aged 65 she was appalled.

I have studied history of popes and Vatican.

It's a load of shite it really is!

Drogosnextwife · 30/11/2018 22:50

No I don't believe any of it. There seems to be an awful lot of blame on Mary here though, she didn't have an excise so made up some crap about being impregnated by angels etc. Apparently Mary was really quite young and Joseph was an older man. Wonder if a young teenager would be blamed if she fell pregnant to am older man today.

headinhands · 30/11/2018 22:53

Something earth shattering and life changing gave them the courage to go out and preach the gospel, facing their own torture

You could say the same about people who fly planes into skyscrapers.

headinhands · 30/11/2018 22:55

Let’s say he was insane

Ah the lord, liar, lunatic spiel. You forgot the fourth option, legend.

Gushpanka · 30/11/2018 23:11

Josephus speaks about someone who fits Jesus in terms of history and the broader story. Apparently it was embellished later to sound more Christian but scholars have identified the bits they think are fake.
So i think Jesus did exist, he was a Jewish preacher with some good ideas who pissed off the establishment. He absolutely was not about establishing a new religion, that was all invented later.

RoseMartha · 30/11/2018 23:11

Yes I do

GoodnightMooncup · 30/11/2018 23:48

I'm not religious. But I think jesus probably existed as a historical person. Most cults are built around a charismatic leader, and it makes sense to me that jesus was the leader of the early Christian cult. That just seems like a simpler explanation than him being completely made up.

Also, if you were going to make up a story about a messiah it would probably be a bit more exciting than the story in the new testament. The story of jesus has a ring of truth to me because he isn't particularly heroic, and if you were going to invent a messiah from scratch then you would have made him seem a bit more glamorous.

My guess is that if you disregard all of the obviously supernatural bits, and all of the bits which directly fulfil various prophesies (virgin births, resurrection etc) , then the bits that are left are probably more or less true.

SisterOfDonFrancisco · 30/11/2018 23:55

I do believe that Jesus existed. There is one part of me that has faith in the claim that he was the son of god. There is also a part of me that thinks he may have just been a random hippie born out of wedlock whose death was exploited by power hungry people to create a world dominating church.

joystir59 · 30/11/2018 23:59

I believe Jesus Mary and Joseph existed