Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed?

[Papergirl1968]

Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed? I thought about putting this under religion, but thought there’d be a wider range of views on chat.
I’m not religious any more (was raised Methodist) but the Christmas story is something I think about occasionally, usually when I’m singing carols to the cat .
My own view is that they probably did exist, but I don’t buy the son of god thing. I’d hazard a guess that Mary got pregnant by Joseph when they were being intimate, even if they didn’t technically have sex. So she panicked and either invented or dreamed a convenient story about the angel telling her she was carrying the son of god.
I believe there’s evidence that they would have had to travel to Bethlehem - although not at Christmas - and that there was a bright star in the sky etc.
And I think Jesus may well have had children. Or maybe I just took the Da Vinci Code too seriously...
Would be interested to hear what others think.

I expect he enjoys the company

Yes they existed, but then I am a church
go-er

I wonder this too. Also we have no idea what age Mary was. The average age for starting periods has varied dramatically through the ages and might have been as high as 16 due to poorer nutrition (and not eating foods pumped full of hormones).

I thought it was believed she was meant to be about 11 or 12. At what time would a girl normally have been married off then?

I don't think her periods are really relevant as if she was impregnated by God he could probably work around the no periods thing too.

I believe that Jesus was a politician whose manifesto was peace. He got a large following and king Herod had him killed as he was a threat.

He became an iconic figure and stories grew about him.

Mary and Joseph had several children after Jesus. His brothers did not recognise him as the Messiah and tried to stop him preaching and making a spectacle of himself

Yes, but that's because he's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

Yes Jesus existed. I have flit from a strong Christian belief to agnosticism and back in my life.

I think he did exist and I believe he would have had children, the fact that he didnt would have been more worthy of mention than the fact that he did iykwim. I agree with PP that he was more of a politician/activist than saviour of the world.

I do not believe he was the Son of God, but then I dont believe that there is a god either so........

Even when I go through agnostic phases, I still think it's quite a decent philosophy.

Also....I think that Mary was invented to prove his credentials as the Messiah. I feel that he was probably a son of a perfectly normal couple who lived the life he did, and his followers needed something to prove he was the Son of God so invented the whole virgin birth thing (not the Immaculate Conception....that was Mary's conception by her parents).

No

I think on the balance of probabilities, we have to assume he was telling the truth- he was the son of God.

No we dont. What we can safely assume is that he believed he was the Son of God.

Yes, I think he was a real person, and would presumably have had parents.
Anything else about him, I couldn't really comment. I know too little of religious or historical matters to enter into a theological / philosophical debate.

The star of Bethlehem could be explained as a comet or one of the planets being visible to the naked eye.

If you are so inclined you can use astronomy software to go back 2018 years and have a look at what planets were visible in the night sky that year, ISTR that there was one that was closer to Earth than usual that year and was in the right place in the sky. I've forgotten which one it was though useful

I think Jesus existed and was probably a very charismatic maverick. He obviously had (human) parents, but I think the story of Mary and Joseph was made up many many years later. I don't think Mary made up the virgin birth/pregnant by God story at all: this was made up by Christian scholars much later. I do believe that after Jesus was crucified his mother feared for her life and fled to the hills just outside Ephesus, but not because she was the mother of the Messiah, but because Jesus had stirred up so much trouble thatshe was at risk of at least stigmatisation and prejudice, and a worse desth.

I don't think much is said about Joseph in the Bible or elsewhere, Jesus had a dad and Christians gave him the name Joseph.

Having said all of that, I can see why people believed him. I've been to Bethlehem, Jerusalem, the Garden of Gethsemane (where it was thought to have been), and to Mary's supposed house outside Ephesus and even now the atmosphere created by pilgrims is really very intoxicating and compelling. I could happily let myself believe if I was so inclined.

I think he probably existed but either as a very charismatic and convincing, or delusional man. Mary and Joseph as they are in the bible and as his parents, no. The Christmas story, no. Christmas and Easter were pagan festivals that were then taken over by Christians and changed according to their beliefs and laws.

I feel genuinely quite saddened by how blithely people say quite contemptuous things about the central (human) people in my religion on this thread even though it’s to be expected given this is a British forum and the British are notoriously disrespectful to religion. Guess if I can’t take the heat I should get out of the kitchen.

Your religion has mercilessly forced it's views on others for centuries, often with extreme violence. It has sponsored wars, colluded with tyrants and dictators, validated the oppression of women, inspired genocides, countenanced slavery and financially exploited the poorest of people. It is a religion of politics, oppression, corruption, abuse and exploitation. It is the very definition of hypocrisy. A few negative comments on MN doesn't even begin to balance the books.

Thank you for your passive-aggressive dig at the entire population of the UK btw, very Christian of you.

i believe he existed as a profit/politician of his time. he had parents of course, no reason to not think they were named mary and joseph.
his ideas were unique to his time for which he was persecuted and killed.
christmas was constructed as a celebration but he was born in the spring.
his idea's might be somewhat devine but he was a man born of a woman who was impregnated as most women have been with some sexual activity.

Actually as free as someone is to criticise Christianity, a Christian is equally entitled to criticise atheism behaviour.

It's part of Christianity to defend the faith and not the fault of someone in 2018 for historical behaviour of leadership.

You don't know if a Christian is from an Easter form of Christianity who were victims of the Roman Catholic church, or if they simply follow the bible whilst not attending any church.

Your idea of Christian behaviour may not match someone else's understanding of Christianity. Meak isn't weak and a mat to be walked all over.

Togoodtobetrue what religion and what non religious movement hasn't and still does? The world wasn't some fluffy wonderful place where everyone went around hugging and kissing each other before Christianity or since.

@popcornwizard 🤣

This business is all about belief, isn't it? Not facts as such.

EG;The Bethlehem that is assumed to be the place may well be the wrong Bethlehem; another village with that name was thought in the early centuries of Christianity to be the one, and it is said that it fits the geography of the bible story better. And so we go on...The basic story may well have some truths in it. As do the stories of all the world religions, which have come and gone over time. Very interesting stuff.

There's no question they existed surely? There's loads of historical evidence and contemporary writing about Mary, Jesus and his brother James and Joseph of Arimathea. The Essenic jews went through an elaborate courting ritual that was protracted over two years and Mary became pregnant in the 'wrong phase' and the story has lept from that as I understood it.

There are references to Jesus in many revered texts including the Koran. They all existed it's just the detail that has got changed, or not, depending on your beliefs.

I believe so, and that Jesus rose again and loves each and every person of all faiths and none. Steadfast love and endless mercy. I like the image of him as a political figure, what a manifesto.