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Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed?

342 replies

Papergirl1968 · 28/11/2018 20:02

Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed? I thought about putting this under religion, but thought there’d be a wider range of views on chat.
I’m not religious any more (was raised Methodist) but the Christmas story is something I think about occasionally, usually when I’m singing carols to the cat Smile.
My own view is that they probably did exist, but I don’t buy the son of god thing. I’d hazard a guess that Mary got pregnant by Joseph when they were being intimate, even if they didn’t technically have sex. So she panicked and either invented or dreamed a convenient story about the angel telling her she was carrying the son of god.
I believe there’s evidence that they would have had to travel to Bethlehem - although not at Christmas - and that there was a bright star in the sky etc.
And I think Jesus may well have had children. Or maybe I just took the Da Vinci Code too seriously...
Would be interested to hear what others think.

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 22:16

Well it's entirely possible for the author(s) of Genesis to be poetic and other authors literal. Also IIRC the bible doesn't say anything about the shape or age of the earth. Nor does it say that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.Confused

Or maybe it does in your bible Pearl, what version are you using?

LadyPasserine · 01/12/2018 22:20

Couldn’t this all be settled by Jeremy Kyle?

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 22:34

Dione

You do know that the "consensus" of experts that impresses you so much are pretty clear that nothing in the NT should be taken literally? That it really has nothing to say historically except, perhaps, that a man called Jesus was put to death by the Romans. Everything else is fiction.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Philosophy & religion
Pearl87 · 01/12/2018 22:37

Dione, the Bible talks about the firmament ("raqia" in Hebrew), which is a solid dome over the Earth. The genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 say that "Creation Week" occurred in roughly 4000 BC. The Bible also says God created animals and humans on the same day, so of course that would mean that dinosaurs and humans must have co-existed. Have you heard of the movement to have Young Earth Creationism taught in science class?

RedDwarves · 01/12/2018 22:38

No one questioned Nelson Mandela, Florence nightingale or Mother Theresa.

Well, no, of course not. Because there does, and will continue to, exist a multitude of contemporary references to them and there is a plethora of evidence to suggest that these people actually existed.

The issue with Jesus is not that he had a cult-like following - that is plainly irrelevant - the issue is whether or not he, as a person, actually existed. And, for that, there is not a single shred of contemporary evidence.

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 22:47

I'm pretty sure the consensus is that he had a mum and dad as well.😂

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 22:56

Called Mary & Joseph?

I think you're a bit out of your depth here, tbh.

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 23:00

I doubt very much they were called Mary and Joseph. Maybe the ancient Jewish versions.

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 23:17

Maybe, maybe, maybe....is that what the "historical consensus" says?

I do think your posts highlight the problem with the "Jesus was real and everyone knows it" position. You claim the "consensus" as your source, but don't actually know what that is. Intellectually lame, imo.

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 23:38

The consensus of historians of the time and region, is that Jesus existed. How is that Intellectually lame?Confused

Vitalogy · 02/12/2018 04:49

These books are pointing to the truth. Gets missed most of the time through dogma and arguing.

SimplySteve · 02/12/2018 05:59

I believe they existed. As someone with a Christmas birthday I was taught the story of Christmas from a very young age.

Alfie190 · 02/12/2018 06:08

I understood there to be consensus amongst historians that Jesus existed. I believe he did and that he was crucified.

I don't believe he rose again or that he was the son of god or that he performed miracles.

Maryjoyce · 02/12/2018 06:21

I think there was Jesus or someone with similar name that was like too many religious nuts today and couldn’t keep his trap shut from preaching so the Romans did the decent thing and got rid of him.
As to Mary and Joseph well he obviously had parents so they probably existed in some way.
But as to virgin births and so on they live in cuckoo land. Joseph probably was having his way with her behind the bike shed. Or cow shed more apt.
So not much different to today.

HariboBrenshnio · 02/12/2018 06:46

I think Jesus existed and likely was known at the time in a cult leader type way. Then stories of what he had done/said where passed down generations until they were eventually written. So potentially some truth - he helped feed people - but it got exaggerated along the way. The bible was obviously written a long time after his death and in a few different languages before being written in English so lots of room for interpretation. It's crazy really that so many people base their entire lives on a book written so long ago, with little relation to life now, and with barley any proof.

Another thing, that apparently was common place, was people took drugs with no knowledge of the effect. That's how I explain him 'coming back from the dead' anyway! Grin

Vitalogy · 02/12/2018 06:52

It's crazy really that so many people base their entire lives on a book written so long ago, with little relation to life now, and with barley any proof. Maybe because there's a truth among the other words that effects people at a profound level.

BertramKibbler · 02/12/2018 06:58

Wow, there’s a lot of people on this thread who will be seeking forgiveness when the times comes!

sashh · 02/12/2018 07:28

Presumably those who don't believe will not be celebrating Christmas then!

I won't.

As for the Xmas 'story' well the two versions in the New Testament don't match up, nor do the genealogies.

The story is probably a retrofit to make Jesus fit prophecy.

I also don't think Jesus is a particularly good example to follow.

Wow, there’s a lot of people on this thread who will be seeking forgiveness when the times comes!

Well that depends doesn't it? According to the JWs I'll just not exist because I'm not JW.

According to the Christians blasting out 'Christian Rock' in the town centre I'm going to hell for asking them to turn the music down.

I think Islam is sending me to hell, not sure about many other traditions.

noodlenosefraggle · 02/12/2018 08:25

presumably those who don't believe won't be celebrating Christmas then

This same question comes up every year! A celebration that occurs around midwinter is a pagan festival that has traditions further back than Christianity. The tree, candles wreaths etc are all pagan. I am a lapsed Catholic, because I completely lost my faith, literally sitting in church one morning. It's been very liberating. I still sit with my secular Jewish in laws on Christmas day and give and receive presents.

Anasnake · 02/12/2018 08:41

Bertram - so you'd better believe or else is what you're saying ?? Forcing belief through fear is one of the reasons for my atheism,

roisinagusniamh · 02/12/2018 08:42

Sort of similar for me Noodle (although I don't have Jewish Inlaws)
Why do Christians think they own Christmas?
It's been pointed out several times that's it's a mid winter celebration and pagan in origin therefore EVERYONE gets to celebrate it !!

Bechetdiagnosed · 02/12/2018 09:06

Bertram - so you'd better believe or else is what you're saying ?? Forcing belief through fear is one of the reasons for my atheism

Yet many on this thread feel ok when they have called Christians 'unintelligent' and 'strange in the mind'.

Double standards. Using ridicule to make a point is not pleasant either and quite a few have resorted to that on this thread.

thebadplace · 02/12/2018 09:07

When people ask this question I always think of 'the life of Brian' as it was such an eye opener for me. I had the impression growing up that Jesus was this amazing being who stood out at time, but that film (plus obviously reading a lot more about the subject subsequently) made me realise that there were many so called prophets and messiahs throughout Jewish history.

After studying Islam and Judaism the resounding lesson was that these were religions created by men for their own personal benefit - how better to persuade your tribe to attack their neighbours than having a great and powerful deity on your side, how better to justify your control over women and slaves, to justify the slaughter and illegal occupation of another country.

So that leads me to Christianity and some men (Paul, James and Peter) who invented Jesus and his works to suit their own agenda !

I can almost imagine them, monty python style sitting planning - "well we should put in a bit about women being silent, and obviously you can only get to heaven by believing us, throw in plenty of miracles, the little people love a good miracle, ooh we should have a virgin birth that always goes down well ! "Better do away with circumcision though let's face it persuading grown men to have their genitals mutilated is never going to win over new converts ! "

roisinagusniamh · 02/12/2018 09:34

I don't think Christians are 'strange in the mind '. I think they have a very different mindset to my own and wonder what causes some people to have such strong beliefs and others to completely reject it.
This thread is interesting and very informative.
I hope (but doubt) it will enable some Christians to questions their faith .

BertramKibbler · 02/12/2018 09:47

Bertram - so you'd better believe or else is what you're saying ?? Forcing belief through fear is one of the reasons for my atheism

I believe God doesn’t ban non believers from heaven if they have lived a good life, my comment more referred to all of the nasty, unpleasant comments on this thread towards Christians. Of course none of us are perfect and make mistakes at times but a lot of the posters don’t sound as though they’re making mistakes, they sound as though they really feel that Christians are inferior in some way. That’s not living a good life, that’s being prejudiced and that will need God’s forgiveness.