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Original poster

Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed?

342 replies

Papergirl1968 · 28/11/2018 20:02

Do you think Mary, Joseph and Jesus existed? I thought about putting this under religion, but thought there’d be a wider range of views on chat.
I’m not religious any more (was raised Methodist) but the Christmas story is something I think about occasionally, usually when I’m singing carols to the cat Smile.
My own view is that they probably did exist, but I don’t buy the son of god thing. I’d hazard a guess that Mary got pregnant by Joseph when they were being intimate, even if they didn’t technically have sex. So she panicked and either invented or dreamed a convenient story about the angel telling her she was carrying the son of god.
I believe there’s evidence that they would have had to travel to Bethlehem - although not at Christmas - and that there was a bright star in the sky etc.
And I think Jesus may well have had children. Or maybe I just took the Da Vinci Code too seriously...
Would be interested to hear what others think.

OP posts:
roisinagusniamh · 01/12/2018 09:46

Bech, don't you think that it's arrogant of you to hope your friends and family might change and become to believe in Jesus ?
It's kinda saying you're right, isn't it .
This is why Christians get bad press .
Please continue to enjoy your 'notions' and leave the rest of us to our reality .

explodingkitten · 01/12/2018 09:46

I feel genuinely quite saddened by how blithely people here trot out the old trope that there is lots of evidence that the Jesus character actually existed, when they obviously haven't actually made any effort to see if it is true.

I did read it. If you'd look up my post more upthread I say:

There are roman documents about Pontius Pilate and Peter and "followers of Jesus" of around that time. It sounds reasonable that he really did exist.

This page just supports what I say. I don't claim that there was evidence of Jesus himself and for me "around that time" and being 70 years after is still the same thing if it was written 2000 years ago.

explodingkitten · 01/12/2018 09:49

I'd like to add that for me the evidence that Jesus existed is not a religious evidence of god and his son, just that there was a man, named Jesus, who lived 2000 years ago and changed religion.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Philosophy & religion
Anasnake · 01/12/2018 09:49

'Sons of Gods' exist throughout antiquity: Mortal mothers and divine fathers. It is a very common theme in Greek and Roman mythology e.g. Hercules, Perseus. It is also featured in Norse and Celtic beliefs and Hinduism.

Bechetdiagnosed · 01/12/2018 09:51

roisinagusniamh no I don’t think I’m arrogant. I do think you are though Hmm

explodingkitten · 01/12/2018 09:51

@CardinalSin

If you don't think that Jesus existed, what do you think happened that made such a big change in religion, big enough to make christianity a bigger religion that the still existing jewish faith?

I'm not that religious myself, but I do think that the man Jesus existed.

Anasnake · 01/12/2018 09:54

Emperor Constantine converting to Christianity Kitten.

IstanbulConstan · 01/12/2018 09:59

'Sons of Gods' exist throughout antiquity: Mortal mothers and divine fathers. It is a very common theme in Greek and Roman mythology e.g. Hercules, Perseus. It is also featured in Norse and Celtic beliefs and Hinduism.

Lots of flood legends also, if these beliefs don't harm, make people happy and give community go for it.

People seem to need something to believe in.

I would rather they follow the two commandments of Christianity over a society damaging movement like totalitarian fascist transology, cummunism, Nazi etc.

CardinalSin · 01/12/2018 10:02

I don't have a problem with evidence that Pilate existed. That evidence in no way indicates any reference to the Jesus character. It helps to show that the gospels were written quite a while after his supposed existence, and tried to use historical facts to make the story believable.
Peter was probably the main founder of the religion, and given that he was supposed to have been born in the year 30 CE, rather suggests that he wouldn't have known Jesus personally even if he had existed!

kenandbarbie · 01/12/2018 10:02

I think he existed as a historical figure, as there are nearly contemporary primary evidence written accounts from romans. The bit about Mary and Joseph traveling to Bethlehem seems made up as there are no Roman records of that census.

I think he probably went into a coma when crucified, did feed homeless people etc. but this was all exaggerated into the miracles etc. Although, I'm not sure if there are records of any of that so everything he did could be made up.

As other people have said, so many people worldwide believe their own religions sincerely also. Everyone can't be right. So I believe that all religions offer a good basis of morality - if the gist of the teachings are used. Without being an excuse to persecute people of other religions.

BertramKibbler · 01/12/2018 10:06

given that he was supposed to have been born in the year 30 CE,

I have googled St Peters date of birth and can’t find any references to this date. Obviously it’s one theory as you must’ve read about it somewhere but there are plenty of others to suggest he was born around the same time as Jesus

IstanbulConstan · 01/12/2018 10:08

Jesus wasn't born 2018 years ago or at Christmas.

Anasnake · 01/12/2018 10:11

25 December comes from the time of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century and was an amalgamation of 2 pagan festivals - Saturnalia and the feast of Mithras.

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 10:40

CardinalSin is spot on. There is not one single shred of evidence demonstrating an historical Jesus. The best there is are a few sources from the next century mentioning in passing the existence of Christians....which clearly don't evidence Jesus himself since most cults worshipped figures that didn't actually exist.

Saul/Paul never references Jesus as a figure who lived on Earth - and makes a lot of allusions to the fact that he only ever existed in the spirit world.

The Josephus passage is an obvious forgery almost certainly the work of Eusebius who freely admitted "lying for Jesus".

Did Jesus exist? The only honest answer is "It's impossible to say one way or the other". But it is most certainly fallacious to claim, as many on this thread are trying to, that there's "good evidence that he did" because there isn't.

Fluffyears · 01/12/2018 10:54

And going since 3 different religions mention him I think that I’d proof of his existence but not any of the other stuff.

Anasnake · 01/12/2018 11:00

Islam recognises Jesus (Isa) as a prophet , not the son of God. They also recognise Moses, Noah, Adam and many others mentioned in both the Torah and the Bible. Islam began in the 7th century though, long after Christianity and Judaism so hardly surprising that they would incorporate elements of belief that were already long established in the Middle East.

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 11:14

Islam & Judaism also mention Moses - and we know he didn't exist.

MadMum101 · 01/12/2018 11:25

No. Its a made up story which may have had a basis in fact, such as news travelling of a man existing with paranoid delusions that he was the son of a deity he believed created the World. An early narcissist? In a similar vein, there was someone who used to leave gifts for poor children but no one believes Santa Claus is a real entity.

Can understand the masses believing all this guff out of ignorance, fear, hysteria, hard, harsh lives with a need to believe that when they've endured it, paradise is the prize. Mainly out of fear though because that is most religion's foundation.

Can not understand anyone believing it in this day and age of knowledge and enlightenment. It does a disservice to the intellectual abilities of the whole human race.

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 11:38

That's all true, MadMum

TwitToWoo · 01/12/2018 11:40

Sorry...posted too soon!

That's all true, but people also believed because they simply did believe that kind of thing back then. It was a stupendously superstitious age when even the clearest, nost skeptical thinkers believed stuff that you couldn't fool most 5 year old's today with.

If Jesus did exist, we know precisely zero about him. Zero.

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 11:55

I believe Jesus did exist. It's the consensus amongst historians, so since I have not yet invited time travel, I'll go with what the experts say.Smile

Bechetdiagnosed · 01/12/2018 12:26

Can not understand anyone believing it in this day and age of knowledge and enlightenment. It does a disservice to the intellectual abilities of the whole human race.

Thanks for letting me know I lack intelligence. I also believe you lack manners Hmm

DioneTheDiabolist · 01/12/2018 12:40

Maybe Madmum101 is a brilliant historian who hadn't shared her findings with her colleagues.Shock Or maybe she is one of those who distrusts experts, preferring Internet confirmation bias to actual research and knowledge.😂

Momo18 · 01/12/2018 12:44

Nope. I was thinking last week as to why God hasn't sent another Jesus to save the world...

formerbabe · 01/12/2018 12:48

Nope. I was thinking last week as to why God hasn't sent another Jesus to save the world

Well because nowadays if someone professed to being Jesus resurrected or the son of God, they would be presumed to be suffering from a mental illness rather than being believed.