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Original poster

Worried about 4 year old son

52 replies

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 13:13

My son turned 4 on the 29th of August and a few days later, he had to start school. :-( I have always thought his speech was very behind from the age of 2. I took him to the health visitor who agreed and saw him six months later and said it was fine (I disagreed) from 2 - 4 he went to nursery full time and I mentioned it to nursery staff on more than a few occasions. As it got closer to applying for school, I sent a message to my local council about deferring. They said it's highly unlikely and he'd just have to start in year 1. I read around on the internet and it seemed it was true, it's near on impossible that this council ever defers children. The nursery reassured me he'd be OK and i'd be doing more harm holding him back.

Roll on now, he has been at school 2.5 weeks and the teacher says she disagrees with the nursery assessment that he is at expected. I said to her I have always thought he had a delay and i've been fobbed off, this teacher did the home visit to in July and I mentioned it to her then, she didn't seem concerned and I knew it would take for him getting to class for them to realise it.

She did an assessment last week on him and his speech has come out severe, he has now been referred to the SENCO teacher in the school. I feel so guilty. I feel bad I have been at work full time and maybe it's my fault I've not had enough one on one time with him. He passed his nursery yesterday (it's next to the school) and cried and said he wants to go back.

Someone please tell me it's going to be ok? What will happen from here? I don't want him to be left behind and feel rubbish. His brother is 9 and at the same school and does really well, they couldn't be more opposite. Any positive stories would be great right now.

OP posts:

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 13:31

Any experiences with pathological demand avoidance to would be helpful

OP posts:

SleepingStandingUp · 21/09/2018 13:35

OP it isn't your fault.

Lots of kids parents work and speak fine. I'm a SAHP and DS3yo has no proper words.

You've tried raising it so did what you could. Now they're seeing him for longer it's more obvious and they're putting help in place.

They will give you ideas of what to do at home as well as school.

You have NOT failed him.

Sorry, no idea what the demand thing is but good luck

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 13:41

Thank you, sleeping the senco lady is off today so we won't hear till Monday. At nursery, he was hardly ever fighting with children, maybe once or twice over the whole two years (and it was both kids if you see what I mean?) the last two days of school I've gone to collect and he has been hitting other kids. Not only is this unfair on the other children, I don't know where it's coming from?! Is it just overload of information for him and school and this is how he "copes"? Nursery was more laid back than school. I've always thought he was different, I love him all the world regardless but it's frustrating when I've tried to express these concerns as a mother when I'm with him every day. I feel like the ball could of got rolling a long time ago.

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

4 year olds Families General education Primary education

SleepingStandingUp · 21/09/2018 13:45

How bad is his speech? Does he have any words? Can he sign?

The hitting I'd guess is frustration at not being able to communicate his needs and overload if class is bigger etc. In quiet nursery they'd have learnt his communication patterns, it's all new to school.
Does he do anything specific to tell you when he's upset, needs the loo, hungry, tired etc?

How is his comprehension? If he had two teddies could be put one under the pillow and one over? Tell which is bigger/ smaller? Feed one a drink? etc?

DS has had involvement from birth and SALT were still soooo slow with speech. He was 3 May and we're just getting a referral to noise making SALT rather than comprehension SALT

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 13:53

He can talk but if you want a conversation it'll be limited and over within seconds, I watched a video of his brother this age and he was having free flowing conversations! For example, "DS, what do you want for dinner?"
"Pizza"
"If you eat your pizza, what would you like for pudding?"
"pizza"
I'll try shortening it and say "OK pizza, dinner, after dinner?" still pizza. He gets his words mixed up to like the other day I said, "is kicking bad?" and he said NO! I said kicking IS bad! Is kicking bad? and he said no again. I tried to say the answer is yes but he got frustrated and started screaming.

He can say basics i think, hello, I love you, mum and dad, he tells us when he needs the toilet, simple words "poo or wee" sometimes he will hold his bits and point to it to tell us he needs a wee. He never tells us he is upset, if he starts to get upset, he will scream or throw whatever he is holding, if it's his brother they will usually argue or fight though my eldest will call out to me and tries his best not to fight back as he does understand he is older and it's not fair.

I don't think his comprehension is good, he struggles with things like big or smaller, how many, what colour etc. We have also heard that a salt referral could be a long time as well. I think all these resources are just badly understaffed and underfunded.

OP posts:

SeaToSki · 21/09/2018 14:03

How is his enunciation? Are his words clear? Does he stutter at all? If he is just struggling to find the words he might have receptive speech delay and/or expressive speech delay. Both of these need professional help with regular weekly sessions for a long time. You need to get pushy and focussed on him having therapy sessions with a speech therapist. Google will be your friend, start researching so that you know what you are talking about with SENCO on Monday.

campion · 21/09/2018 14:05

Sounds like he needs to have a speech and language assessment asap via a gp referral. The sooner the better for his sake.

He's very young and obviously feeling overwhelmed by school,especially if he can't communicate properly. He must feel like he's landed on an alien planet.

You'll need to be assertive for him,OP, so that he gets any help he needs.

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 14:13

Thanks for replies so far.

He can pronounce words funnily. He will say "white" for "light" for example he will say "I want to turn the white off" I will say "light" clearly and he will try but it still comes out as white. There's several other words he does that with. I try to read simple books and point out easy words but he isn't very interested.

He is happiest playing, he isn't at all interested in books or writing or trying to learn his name though he recognises "o" which is the first letter of his first name. He becomes frustrated easily. His latest thing is stripping off when he becomes frustrated though this is indoors and not at school.

OP posts:

LIZS · 21/09/2018 14:23

Has he had a hearing test recently? It is jump to go from delayed speech to pda, try not preempt any potential diagnosis. You could also approach your gp and ask for a referral to a community paed. Are his motor skills ok? Is he difficult over dressing, clothes, food? Compile a list to take with you to gp and when you meet the Senco.

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 14:28

Thanks I am probably over thinking.

Some his ways are ahead, he is fearless at climbing and nursery put him ahead for this (sometimes I think this is him competing with his brother) motor skills are moderate. He makes a huge mess eating but I figured what 4 year old doesn't. He can't dress himself, he can struggle and maybe get trousers on but if they don't go first time he will throw them. He still is wet at night to but been told that's just a hormone thing? Completely dry in the day and no accidents, he just needs helping cleaning himself after a poo. He can't hold a pen correctly but I am not sure if that's worrisome at his age. He can drink from a cup fine to. He is good using his tablet and gets the swiping action and can colour in using the tablet to.

OP posts:

Witchend · 21/09/2018 14:48

Thing is they could all be right at the time:
Behind at 2, doesn't mean will have caught up by 2.5yo.
Just in the okay banding at 2.5yo means that if they don't advance at expected level then at 4yo they may be quite a way behind.

Ask for a hearing check while you're waiting for SALT. Ime it's the first thing they'll ask too.

Witchend · 21/09/2018 14:48

Sorry. The second sentence should have read:
Behind at 2, they may have caught up by 2.5yo.

TellerTuesday4EVA · 21/09/2018 14:55

I would go to your GP asap and ask for a speech & language referral OP. Not because I'm saying there's anything wrong but because it takes so long in some areas to get an appointment. If you can afford to see a private one then I definitely would. DD got referred at just gone 3 & she was 4 years & 3 months when we actually got the NHS appointment, luckily l'd found a private therapist in the meantime.

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 15:21

Thanks everybody, I've been to the gp with him and obviously that day he was good as gold and was like an angel. I'll have to ask for a different gp as I don't think this one was particularly interested anyway in anything I had to say.

It's starting to stretch into school now, for example today his teacher said he wanted a toy back from a child and couldn't say the words so he got frustrated and hit the child. she said she's had two complaints from parents and you know school gates are very cliquey and bitchy it's not helping at all. I explain every time hitting is bad and he has no tablet and a four minute time out (one for each year of his life) if he ever hits at home but he just doesn't care and screams the whole four minutes, he doesn't sit quietly so I'm not sure what good it's doing.

OP posts:

campion · 21/09/2018 15:54

It's obviously not working as he doesn't understand so I wouldn't use that as punishment. He's probably very frustrated and is expressing his feelings by lashing out . School will hopefully see him as 'a child who needs extra help and support' not as a nuisance. They've already identified that he has a significant difficulty.

Forget the cliquey mums. ..what do they know?

Go to the gp with the intention of asking for a speech and language referral. You don't even need to take DS, just tell them what you've said on here but be firm about it and say what you'd like to happen next.
School should also be putting things in place so you might find things start improving for him,especially if you push it as well.

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 16:01

I'm so sad for him. He is such a loving child, I know I sound like a cliche and I'm biased but he really is. I've booked another gp appointment Thursday with a different doctor this time and will remind them how long this has been going on and each time I've been brushed aside as a pain in the bum mother. The school have said it is severe now and I'm hoping the gp listens to me, she's a new doctor with specialist interest in paediatrics so I'm hoping she's more helpful.

Thanks everybody, I know I've done all I can but you can't help feeling guilty.

OP posts:

campion · 21/09/2018 16:09

All mothers know about the guilt thing,OP. It's part of the job description!
Sounds like you've got a good plan there -have some

SleepingStandingUp · 21/09/2018 16:20

Can he sign at all OP? Just basic makaton.
Finished, more, please, thank you, help, share etx

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 16:31

Thanks everyone. No, is it worth teaching him any makaton? I only know dinner, please, thank you and drink

OP posts:

bobisbored · 21/09/2018 16:36

OP I have experience of working with a child with PDA, I'm a TA in a reception class. What would you like to know?
It's not uncommon for children of this age to struggle with speech, it's certainly not your fault! What support are school putting in place for him. Have a look a the website Talking Point, it will give you some good tips on helping him at home. Not being able to share and hitting out is pretty normal behaviour too! Staff should be modelling how to play cooperatively and helping him learn the skills he needs.

SleepingStandingUp · 21/09/2018 16:44

Yes, I'd try some Makaton op. Google is your God in this, or a book from the library. It's important you still say the word when you sign. Focus on words that he struggles with but need. Our current battle is getting DS to sign "help" instead of screaming!

Original poster

DownstairsMixUp · 21/09/2018 16:58

Thank you, have been looking at makaton signs and think this is helpful! I will print off some signs so his brother can learn to.

I just want to know a bit about it, I was googling and it came up and a lot of the symptoms matched him. He does come across sociable for example, but he struggles and only has one friend. If I say "tidy up your toys" he will strip and scream then it's he can't do it as he needs a wee then a poo then he hides under the table... it just sounded a little like him!

OP posts:

BackforGood · 21/09/2018 17:12

You'll know, from having his older brother, that some of the behaviour you describe is quite unusual. I mean, not many children like to tidy up, but this "he will strip and scream then it's he can't do it as he needs a wee then a poo then he hides under the table." is not a usual reaction.

Someone asked earlier on about other things, like eating.... does he eat all sorts? What is it about dressing... can he physically do it? Does he 'get distracted'/ forget what he is doing ?.... doesn't he like the feel of clothes on him ? You say he doesn't have many friends and isn't sociable. How does he react with other children ? Ignoring them? Moving away from them ? Just playing alongside them ? Pushing the away ?
How does he play with toys? Imaginatively? Copying real life or TV, or films, or using things from stories? Does he ever use one toy for another thing (eg picking up a banana and pretending it is a phone, or a hairbrush to be a microphone, etc?)
When you read with him, can he answer questions about what you are reading, or when you watch TV, can he tell you who is who / what is happening or why someone is doing something ?

katycb · 21/09/2018 17:17

Also you have been given incorrect information about defering for a year. I work as an education advisor for a national charity and it is one of our most common enquiries. It is at the discretion of the school but many places let summer born children starting at compulsory school age in reception the year later than normal. It is a fairly recent change in the law so there are lots of misconceptions about it (he shouldn't have to go in to Y1 or catch up later) if this was something u felt strongly about maybe ask another school.

123bananas · 21/09/2018 17:18

Downstairsmixup have you spoken to your Health Visiting Team at all? They can come and do a home visit development assessment and can also refer to Speech and Language plus provide other support for behaviour too. He is still under them until he is 5 years old even though he is in school.

I have a 4 year old with ASD and he was originally referred for speech support through HV. Some of the issues you are facing with frustration in your ds were similar for my ds and were greatly helped by starting PECS with the Speech and Language Therapist. He finds Makaton symbols difficult to interpret sometimes, but PECS uses pictures of real items which helped. Also social stories help him understand rules within classroom situations e.g. sharing.

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