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Guest blog: children "cry for a month" in formal French nurseries

199 replies

KateMumsnet · 20/06/2013 11:10

Recently, childcare minister Liz Truss criticised British nurseries, saying that she had "seen too many chaotic settings, where children are running around," with "no sense of purpose."

She called for a more teacher-led approach, like that of France: "What you notice in French nurseries is just how calm they are. All of their classes are structured and led by teachers... We want children to learn to listen to a teacher, learn to respect an instruction, so that they are ready for school."

In this guest blog, Neil Leitch who is Chief Exec of the Preschool Learning Alliance, says, far from leading the way in early years care, French nursery settings are not ideal.

Read the blog, and let us know what you think. Do you agree that young children could benefit from a more formal nursery education - or is free play the best way to introduce children to education? Share your thoughts on the thread, and if you blog on this issue, don't forget to post your URLs.

'The Government has praised the virtues of the French childcare system compared to childcare in England. Apparently our system produces a nation of unruly toddlers, operates chaotic nurseries and delivers discourteous children - whereas in France children learn to socialise with each other, pay attention to the teacher and develop good manners.

Last month I caught a glimpse into the French childcare system in Paris by visiting private-and state-run 'école maternelles', which provide childcare for children aged three to six. On entering the private école maternelle, I was taken back to my own school education during the late 1950s. The classroom consisted of 25 four-year-old children overseen by one teacher (in England, a day nursery would have a staff-to-child ratio of 1:8 or 1:13 in a school reception class).

There I saw 25 children sit around tables, fidgeting so much that staff had fitted tennis balls to the legs of the chairs to stop any noise. I switched off from observing the teacher and watched the effects of the constant teacher-led activity on the children. I watched them sit in their chairs and twiddle their fingers and then they would start playing with their clothes. As the time went on the little boys began prodding each other as their attention waned.

The next visit was to a state nursery setting, where the building was in a poor state and showed clear evidence of under-investment. Three year olds had times allocated in the day to use the toilet. These three year olds could be in the classroom from 8am to 12.30pm, with a 15-minute play break.

It was a shock to see no outdoor play equipment except for a small climbing frame. The kind of resources many of us would expect to find at an early years setting - bikes, balls, sandpits and the like - were absent.

The children's experiences were all adult-led, as this was the only way the teacher could manage the number of children in her class. When asked what she would improve if she could, the teacher said, "Fewer children," explaining, "I cannot give them enough time. The system formalises their learning and they are only three."

Although 30 children attend the morning session, about half go home at lunchtime and do not return, so the teacher saves the more interactive elements of the curriculum until the afternoon session when she feels better able to cope with the smaller number of children. I clearly saw two-tier childcare provision, where a child's experience was completely different depending on whether they attended the morning or afternoon session.

But we don't hear that side of the story from the Government. Neither did we hear, to quote one teacher, about the countless children that cry for a month when they join the class in September.

The trip only served to support my view that, when it comes to quality childcare and an emphasis on children's learning experiences, we in England have the right approach. Perhaps then the Government could explain why it continues to champion the French approach to childcare when, in terms of quality provision, England leads the way.'

Neil Leitch is Chief Executive of the Preschool Learning Alliance

OP posts:
dreamingbohemian · 21/06/2013 11:12

duchesse, I was referring to your saying that the UK way of discussion is the 'intelligent and mature' way, and that it is responsible for the high level of UK scholarship. Those are both massive assumptions.

You could argue that consensus-driven discussion is not very intelligent or mature, because it values social harmony above intellectual quality. I personally don't think one is better than the other, they are just different.

The US has far more nobels than the Brits do. Do we think the Americans have more intelligent and mature debates? Um, no (I say as an American).

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 11:12

I'm not defending the French system, pickledsiblings, and nothing is lost on me. I am stating facts about what happens.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 11:16

The US have far more Nobels, but few per capita than Britain. And you can't confuse day to day debate (in the media etc) and academic scholarship.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 11:24

Bonsoir in your conversation with me regarding the benefits of free play, I feel you are presenting your own opinions as facts, rather than stating facts.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 11:27

I think your ideas of how children learn are a bit nebulous! It's a bit like saying children learn to speak from one another. No they don't - they learn to speak from adults, and they practice with one another.

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 11:31

And I think you are trying to dismiss my views by deliberately misunderstanding me. I have not said that children only learn from one another.

dreamingbohemian · 21/06/2013 11:33

So? The Brits have fewer per capita than Luxembourg. You know, that powerhouse of academia, Luxembourg.

And I don't think you can confuse one person on an MN debate with French scholarship either.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 11:35

You are trying to make this a debate of opinion and merit. I don't see the point. The OP misrepresents the French childcare/school situation and all I want to do is present a factually correct view, not debate the merits of one or the other (both are full of holes IMVHO).

CoteDAzur · 21/06/2013 11:37

How exactly do you think a table of Nobel Prizes by country is relevant to this thread?

This thread has taken a bizarre turn.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 11:42
Growlithe · 21/06/2013 12:14

Isn't the point of the blog to debate the merits of one system against the other? A lot of such debate is opinion based, although opinion can be based on the research of others and also experience.

This blog is clearly biased, but is put forward to dispute a view that the French system is superior to the UK system. I am simply putting forward the view that the UK system has many strengths, up to you if you want to enter into an opinion based debate with me on that or not, but I whilst I will respect your opinion I will not accept it as fact, nor will I present my opinion as fact.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 12:14

Luxembourg has 2. A statistically meaningless number. World-class scholarship is not confined to countries with many people. People who live in a country of 49,000 people will almost certainly not have had their university education in that country.

In all those tables, the Faroes lead because they have produced 1 Nobel laureate. I think one reasonably has to discount the statistically insignificant front-runners.

I find it interesting that China is bottom of the table for scientific prizes. Given the large number of Chinese people who speak English, and the perspicacity of the Nobel committee in hunting out little-known people, you would expect there to be more if China really were the techno-hub it's presented as being.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 12:16

I think that Nobel prizewinners per capita is very useful as a measure of the level of creativity and inventiveness produced or fostered on average by an education system.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 12:18

There is no point in debating a false premise.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 12:20

Righty-ho then, we'll ignore an internationally recognised and objectively-awarded method of acknowledging advances in human understanding. Good idea.

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 12:30

Bonsoir what are you referring to as a 'false premise'? And why are you debating if you think there is no point?

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 12:38

I am not debating. My only interest in this thread is to correct the misconceptions in the OP (and the subsequent ones added by some posters).

dreamingbohemian · 21/06/2013 12:40

It's not about ignoring the nobel, merely saying that there are limits to how much you can extrapolate from it.

It is by design an extremely rare award, given to the creme de la creme. Extrapolating from that to the entire intellectual structure and discourse of a country is dodgy. If you want to say that the UK outperforms France in the specific subjects in which it has won specific prizes, that's a bit more sound. To say that the posting style of a random person on the internet is indicative of why the UK wins more science prizes is really a stretch.

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 12:42

Well, I've enjoyed your opinions on the role of free play in education anyway. Whether you call that debating is, of course, a matter of opinion.

ProbablyJustGas · 21/06/2013 12:46

I happen to think starting primary school at age 4 is too young. That is based on watching my own DSD, who did not turn 5 until halfway through the school year, struggle emotionally and academically with P1, to the point where she had to repeat most of the material during P2. And I am told that P1 is meant to be "play-based learning" with sand trays and everything, but she still came home with homework every night that she was not capable of doing. My opinion is rooted very deeply in personal experience, as well as a culture clash - several other parents here tell me their kids did just fine at that age. Okay.

With regards to lowering the costs of childcare, a debate centred on various educational models is probably the wrong one to have. I don't think it is just the preschool model on the continent that allows costs to be lower for European families. Didn't someone mention way upthread that the costs of home help in FR - a nanny, essentially - could be deducted from a working parent's salary? If that is true, and if the whole cost of the nanny can be deducted, then that is where UK childcare is going wrong, WRT not being a deterrent to working parents.

Childcare vouchers help, but they are clearly not enough to cover the staggering costs. The new system the Gov is planning to roll out will still only cover part of the costs, and it only applies up to age 5 with a vague promise to extend the age "in due course". This is despite school-aged children still needing childcare if either Mom or Dad expects to work full time. Child tax credits seem to be available only to lower-income families, but childcare expenses are not a burden or a deterrent to only the working poor.

That is where we really need to be pressing policymakers - getting wrapped up in who has more Nobel prize winners is a distraction from the real issue at hand.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 12:47

Huh? We're not talking about the posting style of internet randomers but the intrinsic values of entire education systems. Aren't we?

ProbablyJustGas · 21/06/2013 12:51

What I'm trying to say is that changing UK culture and British expectations of what childhood should be, is like trying to do a U-turn with a cruise liner to avoid an obstacle. It can be done, but it would be far more efficient to just change direction slightly and steer around the obstacle.

FannyFifer · 21/06/2013 12:56

You do know that Scotland has a separate education system so I assume by UK you all mean England?

Don't have to start school as young here, I've seen threads with children turning 4 in Aug starting school, not allowed in Scotland.

DD has a Feb birthday so will be kept back and start at 5 1/2 instead of 4 1/2. No problem with doing this.

I think the system in England is very rigid.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 21/06/2013 12:57

Would just like to add that free play doesn't have to mean no input from adults at all - just that the play is initiated by the child/ children. Adults can still support it, add to it, and extend it in interesting and challenging ways.

ProbablyJustGas · 21/06/2013 13:03

@FF: Yes, I know. I think age 4 is too young to start formal, full days of school, full stop - whether Scottish or English or any other nationality. I don't think my DSD (also a Feb birthday) should have been allowed to start school at the age she was. I know she could have been deferred with no issues, but the teenage girls at her nursery thought she was ready, and my DH and his exW were under a lot of financial stress at the time, so had a very pressing incentive to cut down on nursery costs as quickly as possible. Since they could, they did.

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