Guest blog: children "cry for a month" in formal French nurseries

[KateMumsnet]

Recently, childcare minister Liz Truss criticised British nurseries, saying that she had "seen too many chaotic settings, where children are running around," with "no sense of purpose."

She called for a more teacher-led approach, like that of France: "What you notice in French nurseries is just how calm they are. All of their classes are structured and led by teachers... We want children to learn to listen to a teacher, learn to respect an instruction, so that they are ready for school."

In this guest blog, Neil Leitch who is Chief Exec of the Preschool Learning Alliance, says, far from leading the way in early years care, French nursery settings are not ideal.

Read the blog, and let us know what you think. Do you agree that young children could benefit from a more formal nursery education - or is free play the best way to introduce children to education? Share your thoughts on the thread, and if you blog on this issue, don't forget to post your URLs.

'The Government has praised the virtues of the French childcare system compared to childcare in England. Apparently our system produces a nation of unruly toddlers, operates chaotic nurseries and delivers discourteous children - whereas in France children learn to socialise with each other, pay attention to the teacher and develop good manners.

Last month I caught a glimpse into the French childcare system in Paris by visiting private-and state-run 'école maternelles', which provide childcare for children aged three to six. On entering the private école maternelle, I was taken back to my own school education during the late 1950s. The classroom consisted of 25 four-year-old children overseen by one teacher (in England, a day nursery would have a staff-to-child ratio of 1:8 or 1:13 in a school reception class).

There I saw 25 children sit around tables, fidgeting so much that staff had fitted tennis balls to the legs of the chairs to stop any noise. I switched off from observing the teacher and watched the effects of the constant teacher-led activity on the children. I watched them sit in their chairs and twiddle their fingers and then they would start playing with their clothes. As the time went on the little boys began prodding each other as their attention waned.

The next visit was to a state nursery setting, where the building was in a poor state and showed clear evidence of under-investment. Three year olds had times allocated in the day to use the toilet. These three year olds could be in the classroom from 8am to 12.30pm, with a 15-minute play break.

It was a shock to see no outdoor play equipment except for a small climbing frame. The kind of resources many of us would expect to find at an early years setting - bikes, balls, sandpits and the like - were absent.

The children's experiences were all adult-led, as this was the only way the teacher could manage the number of children in her class. When asked what she would improve if she could, the teacher said, "Fewer children," explaining, "I cannot give them enough time. The system formalises their learning and they are only three."

Although 30 children attend the morning session, about half go home at lunchtime and do not return, so the teacher saves the more interactive elements of the curriculum until the afternoon session when she feels better able to cope with the smaller number of children. I clearly saw two-tier childcare provision, where a child's experience was completely different depending on whether they attended the morning or afternoon session.

But we don't hear that side of the story from the Government. Neither did we hear, to quote one teacher, about the countless children that cry for a month when they join the class in September.

The trip only served to support my view that, when it comes to quality childcare and an emphasis on children's learning experiences, we in England have the right approach. Perhaps then the Government could explain why it continues to champion the French approach to childcare when, in terms of quality provision, England leads the way.'

Neil Leitch is Chief Executive of the Preschool Learning Alliance

Bonsoir, we haven't met - I don't think - but I back pretty much everything you've said.

I would like to add that if the average parent of 2.5-3.5 year olds in France is asked if/when their child has started/is starting school, the answer won't be, "In a couple of years."

I long for the day when a group of sociologists, teachers and educational/child psychologists get together to to a proper study of the differences between the systems, rather than journalists, or someone who has spent two days (I mean really, TWO DAYS?!) observing something and then is classed as some sort of expert.

It seems that only in the field of Franco-Anglo educational differences - where the difference is that the French are better - can one become an expert with no academic rigour or study on which to base their claimed, and altogether unquestioned, knowledge.

And it's boring.

What couldn't they keep up with? Failure to master the bonhomme? I'm not saying it's perfect - no system is - I just think when you are in it you can more clearly appreciate its good points (while still acknowleging its shortcomings). I don't see how this blogger could form any conclusion after such a cursory glance.

I love France, and would like to live there but I would never put my children into the French education system. Its rigid, unimaginative, and crushes creativity imo.

They didn't have the motor skills to cut with scissors or to do the cursive pre-handwriting drilling required in GS, or to be able to count, or to do the physical exercises required (rolling down hills in a straight line or climbing on frame). Or hold a tune. That sort of stuff. They get refused entry to CP for stuff like that.

I think there are a few mums of August babies who would like the option of keeping their dc back a year in this country.

Does anyone have the figures on what percentage of kids go to a jardin d'enfants instead of maternelle? My son (3.5) absolutely loves his, they seem more "free" than maternelles, yet nobody's mentionned them? There is another choice besides maternelle here.

Lillian, that is exactly the situation we are in this year with DD3. (27th August). We have a choice of two places- one at the mixed age (R-yr 2) class at our nearest village school, one at the new steiner academy opening in town. DD is adamant she wants to go to the "painting school" and I feel she'd benefit from some extra time just running around being a small child but we're going to visit both with an open mind and make our decision then.

Statistically, if you get held back so early on in the French system, you never reach the bac.

That's why we don't have holding back in the UK. DNephew was put forwards a year at age 4/5 (he skipped GS). Now at 15 he is perfectly able but lacks the maturity to be going into 1ere tbh.

I meant that's why we don't have flexibility in age in the UK system. Whether or not you even reach A levels shouldn't depend on your maturity or sortedness at primary school. I actually think that the French education is becoming more and more elititist in a bad way the more time goes on. The fact that unless you have to come from the "right" primary to get into the "right" collège, to get in the "right" lycée, to get into classes prépa, to get access to the best university education is horrifyingly elitist, centred on Paris, and accessible only to those with basically the right postcode is actually worse than the divisions we have in the UK.

I want to know if it's true all virtually all children in France are in full-time childcare from 12 weeks old and all women are totally career focused? Are there any official statistics for this?

Because my childless friend keeps telling me this. She has another friend in France with 2 small children and constantly tells me about all these great early achievements of these French children and makes me and my 16 months old feel like a failure. ( I still breastfeed, co-sleep, haven't thought about toilet training and share childcare with DH ).

I don't see very many early achievements on the whole among French babies. Yes to sleeping through the night though, achieved by simply leaving the baby to cry itself to sleep regularly from early on. Also much of their later good behaviour is achieved with liberal use of physical punishment. I'm sure many childless people might think that's a good idea.

French women on the whole do go back to work after 3 months. They get very long pre-natal maternity leave though so it's pretty much the same in length as here.

MrsHuxtable, I think it is generally true that French women are much more likely to go back to work when their baby is very young, partly because of the availability of affordable childcare. Don't let it worry you though. Whatever is working for you and your DC is fine!

Not all, MrsHuxtable, but a lot are. They're not career focused as such, just like to be in the "vie active" (as if staying at home you're doing nothing, but don't get me started...) I'm not French but live here - I went back to work when DS was 7 months, which was considered quite late, with DD it was even later, at 9 months. I was fortunate to have a DH who could cover a few months extra unpaid. That's obviously not the case for everyone.

I'm in Belgium not France, so probably shouldn't comment, but system is similar in certain ways. (I agree with those of you who say the French system is becoming negatively elitist btw; and it can be very boring.

But to get back to the maternelles, I would like to say that the title of this thread is unnecessarily inflammatory.

(And I find it hilarious that the French are accused of 'formalising' education for dc who are too young when it is the British education system that asks 4 yr olds to write.)

It isn't always a disaster that a child has to conform to a group rather than have their individual needs attended to you know ... .

For example, at my dd's school, I loved the way they placed huge importance on eating together and enjoying it! And in order to do that, it follows that you have to stick fairly accurately to timings. There are sound educational reasons for many of the things labelled on here as 'rigid'.

My dd loved her time in the maternelle and thrived there; I found the dc could concentrate on creative activities precisely because the class was calm and structured.

And the children were cared for really well: taught practical skills in amazing repetitive boring detail: such as how to do up buttons, put shoes on the right feet, how to put on and take off their coats, how to eat, cut up fruit, wash their hands etc etc. And they were taught a few basic manners and social skills such as always saying "Bonjour" and kissing one another in the morning.

And fwiw, my dd (an only child) didn't completely master potty training until she was with others her own age who showed her how!

As in any country, the system is not without its problems, but a couple of days spent visiting different schools is not nearly enough time to accurately assess the educational methods of another country. You have to really experience it properly to do that.

Maternelle is (literally) child's play! Believe me, it all gets much, much tougher when they go on to primaire, but that's another thread ... .

Some people here seem to think that going to toilet at specific times means kids are not allowed to go when they want. That is of course not the case. They go to the toilet more often than they normally would, actually - early in the morning, after snack, after lunch, etc. And after all that toilet time they still want to go, they tell teacher or her assistant and are taken to the toilet on their own.

I'm not sure what the debate upthread was really about, but école maternelle is school (hence the word école). It is not compulsory but practically every child goes there - personally I don't know a single child between the ages of 3 and 5 who does not go to école maternelle.

Children do learn through play in maternelles, at least in our experience. There is a lot of free play but there are also many games with specific goals in mind - much of drawing with specific instructions, for example, is geared towards having kids learn to write.

"
In Britain, children are taught how to read from nursery. In France, it is left much later, with more emphasis on learning nursery rhymes and songs. By the time reading is taught, every child is ready to read instead of it being forced on them from an early age."

i didn't see any force being use in EYFS nursery or Reception. I did see lots of nursery rhymes and songs. books left out to be played with when children wished to. Why place these things in opposition? they aren't mutually exclusive.

..and the Taiwanese nursery i worked at had 2 year olds with scheduled loo breaks, though of course, that didn't mean the Ta wouldn't take them to the loo at other times - this approach does work, especially as toileting together makes it easier for the children to make time for it (no-one wants to wee when another child is playing!)

I know plenty of parents (mostly women but that's a whole different debate) here in France who have gone back to work part-time once they started a family. Often it's 80% so they get their Wednesdays free.

The blog does sound like someone trying to prove his point.

That said, if French DCs are taught in such an orderly way and end up with such fantastic social skills, how come at Disneyland Paris they refuse to queue to meet the characters and physically knock my English children, who are waiting their turn, out of the way in their haste to push their way to the front?

superfluouscurves - my understanding from French friends who have moved to Belgium is that Belgian maternelle doesn't cover as much pre-reading and pre-writing ground as French maternelle. Unsurprisingly the curricula in different countries are not the same.

Growlithe, I wouldn't go there, as there is plenty of examples of each and every nationality behaving badly... I mean... Drunk English people in Costa del Sol? Noisy unruly Italians?

But this is specifically about children, and structured learning v free play for the very young. I'm not talking about the French generally. I'm saying that this structured approach does not necessarily result in good manners and behaviour in children. In fact, when presented with something fun that they really want to do, they maybe haven't learned how to hold on and wait their turn, as the free players might.

Queuing and waiting your turn is explicitly taught in English culture... not so much in many others. As usual, children's behaviour is very much linked to the precise skills that are valued in the culture and institutions they live in.

I'm not sure a small child would be necessarily be taught explicitly how to queue and wait your turn, but they are skills that a child would learn come from a free play environment.