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Guest blog: children "cry for a month" in formal French nurseries

199 replies

KateMumsnet · 20/06/2013 11:10

Recently, childcare minister Liz Truss criticised British nurseries, saying that she had "seen too many chaotic settings, where children are running around," with "no sense of purpose."

She called for a more teacher-led approach, like that of France: "What you notice in French nurseries is just how calm they are. All of their classes are structured and led by teachers... We want children to learn to listen to a teacher, learn to respect an instruction, so that they are ready for school."

In this guest blog, Neil Leitch who is Chief Exec of the Preschool Learning Alliance, says, far from leading the way in early years care, French nursery settings are not ideal.

Read the blog, and let us know what you think. Do you agree that young children could benefit from a more formal nursery education - or is free play the best way to introduce children to education? Share your thoughts on the thread, and if you blog on this issue, don't forget to post your URLs.

'The Government has praised the virtues of the French childcare system compared to childcare in England. Apparently our system produces a nation of unruly toddlers, operates chaotic nurseries and delivers discourteous children - whereas in France children learn to socialise with each other, pay attention to the teacher and develop good manners.

Last month I caught a glimpse into the French childcare system in Paris by visiting private-and state-run 'école maternelles', which provide childcare for children aged three to six. On entering the private école maternelle, I was taken back to my own school education during the late 1950s. The classroom consisted of 25 four-year-old children overseen by one teacher (in England, a day nursery would have a staff-to-child ratio of 1:8 or 1:13 in a school reception class).

There I saw 25 children sit around tables, fidgeting so much that staff had fitted tennis balls to the legs of the chairs to stop any noise. I switched off from observing the teacher and watched the effects of the constant teacher-led activity on the children. I watched them sit in their chairs and twiddle their fingers and then they would start playing with their clothes. As the time went on the little boys began prodding each other as their attention waned.

The next visit was to a state nursery setting, where the building was in a poor state and showed clear evidence of under-investment. Three year olds had times allocated in the day to use the toilet. These three year olds could be in the classroom from 8am to 12.30pm, with a 15-minute play break.

It was a shock to see no outdoor play equipment except for a small climbing frame. The kind of resources many of us would expect to find at an early years setting - bikes, balls, sandpits and the like - were absent.

The children's experiences were all adult-led, as this was the only way the teacher could manage the number of children in her class. When asked what she would improve if she could, the teacher said, "Fewer children," explaining, "I cannot give them enough time. The system formalises their learning and they are only three."

Although 30 children attend the morning session, about half go home at lunchtime and do not return, so the teacher saves the more interactive elements of the curriculum until the afternoon session when she feels better able to cope with the smaller number of children. I clearly saw two-tier childcare provision, where a child's experience was completely different depending on whether they attended the morning or afternoon session.

But we don't hear that side of the story from the Government. Neither did we hear, to quote one teacher, about the countless children that cry for a month when they join the class in September.

The trip only served to support my view that, when it comes to quality childcare and an emphasis on children's learning experiences, we in England have the right approach. Perhaps then the Government could explain why it continues to champion the French approach to childcare when, in terms of quality provision, England leads the way.'

Neil Leitch is Chief Executive of the Preschool Learning Alliance

OP posts:
Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 08:34

No, I am afraid that you are not right there, growlithe! There is nothing free play about learning to queue!

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 08:39

Then you clearly do not understand the social skills a child learns during free play.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 08:41

No child learns any social skills during free play alone. They can only put into practice the social skills that have been modelled for them, or taught, in their culture.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 09:11

Do you think that other children, playing with them, cannot model good, and bad, social skills? Don't you think that children playing together learn a lot about cooperation and conflict resolution even without the intervention of adults? Do you not see how their speaking and listening skills could be greatly enhanced?

duchesse · 21/06/2013 09:42

Totally agree with Bonsoir that social skills cannot possibly be learned from free play! Children don't invent them, they have to learn them from adults. That's possibly where lots of people go wrong with teaching social skills in the UK!

duchesse · 21/06/2013 09:44

Growlithe, most children's natural conflict resolution skills (as demonstrated by most 1-2 year olds) involves snatch and grab, or hitting and grabbing. Basically getting what they want when they want it. Social skills are designed to temper this natural urge to have everything for themselves. How are they expected to learn for themselves that this is socially unacceptable?

TheBirdsFellDownToDingADong · 21/06/2013 09:46

I think we only have to visit a soft play centre to observe that any social skills children have tend to go out of the window during "free play".

Did the French pushy kids at the theme park smell of garlic and have a string of onions as well? Hmm

dreamingbohemian · 21/06/2013 09:56

French society has a whole different approach to queueing than the Brits, so it's not really surprising that French teenagers, who are part of that society, act differently.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 09:59

Precisely. And judging another culture/society for its supposed failures through the prism of ones own monoculture without taking into account what has in fact been taught in that other culture is a pointless exercise.

It's a bit like saying that English people are "bad" at foreign languages. We don't know anything of the sort - what we do know is that insufficient emphasis is put on language learning in England.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 10:18

Exactly- you have to love the whole- "these Johnny foreigners don't behave like us Brits and therefore are rude" views. Abroad is unutterably bloody and Africa starts at Dover, people.

FWIW the French find the lack of basic social skills from many Brits and Germans, such as not greeting everybody personally, not making eye contact or acknowledging people, not saying hello in shops, etc, very odd indeed. With the Brits they just excuse by saying it is the great British reserve so we get away with it. We are lucky.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 10:20

We used to have problems in France with some table manners- eg having to keep hands under the table in British settings but on the table in French. You just adapt. Do one thing in one setting and the other in others. Just one of the many delights of growing up with a dual culture.

learnasyougo · 21/06/2013 10:28

Not wanting to wade into this (interesting) debate, since I am on the fence on this one (horses for courses, I reckon) however I'm finding Bonsoir's abrasive manner very off-putting. You've been sailing close to the wind regards making things personal. I'm sure you don't mean to come across so stubbornly opinionated (the curse of the written word) but it detracts from what you have to say, for me. (as does the emotive nature of the thread title, making out that the French are heartless towards their children - bad, agenda driven writing).

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 10:30

I don't think I am judging a society or culture or using stereotypes here at all. I am making an observation based on my experiences in a social situation. In fact, judging from the reaction of the staff I do not actually think it was behaviour that they found acceptable.

I agree that social skills are taught in the home and the greater society and culture does play a big part, but children must also learn to get along with others who may not have the same social norms, or culture.

As for 1 and 2 year olds grabbing, hitting and biting, I thought we were talking about the 3 plus age group? I am also talking about free play in an educational settings where children are supported, not the likes of soft play.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 10:32

learnasyougo - I've lived in France for 21 years, went to a French-hybrid school myself for a time (the rest of the time in England), and have three DC in the French system. My DP is French. I know an awful lot about the French school system and the myths and misconceptions that people bandy around are very dull.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 10:38

Yes, but tbf Bonsoir you've also taken on a very abrasive (quite French) debating fashion that comes across as quite rude in the UK. It's all "This is the way things are, there is no room for discussion". I feel that the UK evidence-based way of discussing things, whilst taking into account the various opinions and views, is the intelligent and mature way of going about things. It's more consensual and less likely to lead to friction than simply saying (or intimating) "This is the truth, and if you don't agree you are wrong!" which does not lead to reasoned debate.

Merely believing something does not make it "true" (and what is "the truth" anyway?). That is why scholarship in the UK is so much better developed than in France and (in my view) why there are so many more science nobel prize-winners in the UK than France. An authoritarian stance does not make for good scholarship.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 10:39

Growlithe - in French écoles maternelles "free play" really is that: the playground can be vicious and teachers leave the DC to fight it out. You may fondly believe that English-style intervention is the international norm in schools, but it isn't.

Bonsoir · 21/06/2013 10:40

I'm not trying to debate anything on this thread, or to persuade anyone of anything! I'm trying to lay out facts to counteract the mythical quality of the OP.

ppeatfruit · 21/06/2013 10:41

Annafivetowns Grin

Growlithe · 21/06/2013 10:48

I know nothing about the French system. I know nothing particularly about the French, and had no preconceptions about them at all actually, misconceptions or facts.

I am interested as a parent in the way my reception aged child is taught in school. I think there is a massive emphasis on social skills now and I am more than happy with this.

Also, when we talk about free play, it is not really 'free' as such, rather than giving a child choices in how they can learn what has to be taught. This is great because it recognises the different learning styles we have and gives the child a sense of control in what they are doing, which is a great motivator towards success.

pickledsiblings · 21/06/2013 10:48

I think that Growlithe's academic definition of 'free play' has been somewhat lost on you Bonsoir - perhaps that's because it is a concept that the French have yet to embrace. Of course children can learn social skills through free play!

dreamingbohemian · 21/06/2013 10:51

duchesse, those are some pretty breathtaking cultural assumptions there

FWIW I think the French argue more like the Americans, who aren't exactly doing too shabby when it comes to scholarship and nobel prizes

I think the main constraint on French scholarship is that English has really become the international academic language, and unlike say, the Germans and Scandinavians, the French are more resistant to this

duchesse · 21/06/2013 10:59

bohemian, I don't need to invent it- it's all here.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I don't need to make any assumptions about France and French culture- I grew up there/here (I'm here at the moment) with English parents.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 11:01

65 Nobel prize winners for France (all disciplines), 119 for the UK.

duchesse · 21/06/2013 11:03

This is an interesting table as well. Per capita country nobel prize league table.

pickledsiblings · 21/06/2013 11:04

For Bonsoir - the importance of play

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