"Strivers vs Skivers" - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

Prompted by a blog post this week from MN Blogger Sonya Cisco, and this opinion piece by BlogFest panellist Zoe Williams, for our first blog-prompt of the New Year we thought we'd ask for your thoughts on the current debate around benefits cuts.

According to both Sonya and Zoe, politicians have deliberately encouraged us to think of people as either 'skivers' or 'strivers' in order to pit people on low incomes against one another - and to divert attention from the fact that the economy simply can't provide enough jobs.

Do you agree with them? And if not - why not? Post your URLs here if you blog - or, if you haven't got a blog (why not? ) do tell us what you think here on the thread.

jake will you continue to get full HB from april? most authorities will no longer be paying it in full for anyone

i laughed a lot at the mythical work that can be done at home typing on the internet. 'work from home', 'supplement your income' etc sites, adverts and schemes are notorious for being run by utter con merchants exploiting the many, many people who would love to believe that they could do so.

Apparently as I am in social housing yes it will. I will have to pay a contribution to council tax but that's fine with me...it's not me and DS here so I will find the 10% of whatever it is they ask for......it will be harder though. DS has a rreferral to CAMHS for support with anxiety and depression (common in ASD) and is still waiting a year on. I am funding some private sessions for him with a local charity which offers children's counselling.....fact is that the council tax will be just another bill.....oh well.

just me and DS....

My internet connection is something I pay for as an aide to living, it is there when I need to order food, or other things, to avoid the need to traipse painfully around shops, and in the event that I cannot get out, like recently, it is more than essential. I can access my bank, pay bills, find public transport and actually use websites to plan to a tee my outings in such a way that they use up the least energy and leave me feeling the best I can. I've researched the benefits I am entitled to ONLINE, I found the charities that support us ONLINE, I found the grants for essential equipment ONLINE, I found the support for when we are in a crisis ONLINE, homelessness advice ONLINE, disability discrimination facts so I could appeal a council housing decision ONLINE. Everything I know that gets me by has been found mostly online, or at least the connection to the charity or advice giving service online.

The EU and UN state that internet access should be a human right [http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/17session/A.HRC.17.27_en.pdf]

It really annoys me that people see us poor folk on the internet and believe that we are being extravagant or somehow mis-prioritising our benefit money (send us all to hell, how dare we spend our money on something like that!).

Certain technologies have improved my life no end and I actually use my disability money to fund them, like my tablet which I can take notes on as quickly as I could writing them onto paper, because I can't hold a pen and write. SKY TV because I have autistic children who freak out and meltdown if they have to do anything at all and miss what they were watching. Now I can pause things, rewind them, store them, get them from a library, and it only cost me £30 for the first year because I used my internet to find special offers and money back deals, and thus used money I set aside for the children anyway to make it so.

If people want to think I get too much, then maybe we should look at the things I don't get.

Sleep. My daughter barely sleeps, and if I let myself sleep too deeply she does dangerous things, I could go into the lists of things, but it's depressing.

Pain free existence, every moment of the day I hurt, some days less than others, but this is me for the rest of my life, and if I want some comfort in the form of internet to chat to my friends or make my life easier I don't see the problems.

Peace of mind. I never never relax. I have to worry about whether my daughter will come home from school having hurt other children, hidden or run away. I have to sleep with one eye open because she has no sense of danger and thinks playing with a hot iron would be fun. I have to stop her hurting her brother, breaking stuff, running away, licking the sockets, and trying to open and climb outside windows on the second floor.

There's more, but lucky me, part of my condition (one of them anyway) is fogginess of thinking. Which means for now that's all I can remember. And also really doesn't help with keeping on top of all the possible forms of danger my daughter might find and keeping her safe, I spend a lot of time coaxing her down from high places and taking pictures of the bruises or bitemarks she's given to anyone she see's on a regular basis.

People are aware that broadband can be had for £9.50 a mon, free with certain phone packages, yes?

As said before sometimes Internet connection is required to food shop, get prescriptions filled, do all your banking and even school communications require it nowadays.

When you are unable to leave the house through disability, or by having to care for someone with a disability, Internet is essential.

Many homework assignments require internet usage as well.

no one should have to justify having the internet in this day and age.

Plus the government wants people to claim benefits online and monitor claimants job applications via universal jobsmatch.

My car finally died thr death today..... it was a bargain a year ago at £250 from eBay. Thankfully I have friends as DS just cannot cope with public transport unless its the middle of the day and empty. My friends will do the school run for me.

Xenia I respect your views but have you read the posts immediately prior to this one as they are heartbreaking. Nobody is saying "woe is me" but they ARE saying "this is hard".

I am relieved to have Internet access because at the very least I can do my shopping online, sell an expensive camera I won in a competition and with the scrap value for my current car will have hopefully £500 for a "new" car which I hope will be a tad more reliable than the last one .

not to mention that unemployed people will actually find the nine pound a month for internet cheaper than buying newspapers, getting buses to the job centre everyday etc to job search.

or the fact that buying clothes and other essentials (yes even people on benefits need to buy clothes for their children) is often cheaper than high street shops.

or that, as others have said, children are expected to have internet access for educational purposes - my son is five and has already been sent home log in details for an online maths resource.

the internet can be used to find the cheapest utility providers and indeed having an 'online' account can result in cheaper charges for many things. fuel bills can be monitored by providing monthy meter readings.

oh and then there's that decadent bit of actually having some social interaction for say carers who never get to leave the house, or the severely disabled. how very dare they have such luxuries.

There was a gov initiative until recently that provided laptops for low income families on certain benefits for children to do homework.
It was obviously seen to be important enough then. Ok they didn't pay for internet access but it made a huge difference to many families I know.
Another benefit to dc that was cut.
We didn't qualify, but I am so sorry for those now who either do without or worse still have to complete homework at school. Sometimes this makes getting home more difficult and can create unsafe situations.

Yes, I wasn't really asking you all to justify the time you spend on the internet or the fact benefits are so generous you can afford internet and food.

On earning money by writing, there is nothing special about me but I manage to do that so I am just suggesting people have a go as it is a way to earn money without being able to move much other than to type and without leaving the house. Be positive.

On different generations' positions this radio 4 programme is really interesting. I couldn't find part 1.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pztjf/Generations_Apart_Series_2_Transition_to_Adulthood/

It is comparing children born in 1950s or 40s and 1990s - what you now expect to have - holidays whereas their parents had none, electronics, meals out but that some of the things the parents found - jobs albeit on low paid - are harder to be had. Mind you there was also that awful time in the early 80s when a whole generation couldn't find much work so I suppose it's always cyclical.
One person made the point that we are becoming more continental, spanish in a sense in that responsiblity for children is moving from state to parents, childre are living at home into their 30s and the trend may also mean care in old age moves from the state to those children too. Perhaps it's just a return to the norm across the planet - that your family cares for you and state will have no money to help much at all and you'll have to tolerate your awful mother or dreadful father whether you like it or not and/or keep in with your children.

Surprise, surprise! We have moved forward in time and no longer live in the past! And, amazingly, peoples' thinking has changed as well.

Not had a holiday for three years...couldn't afford one even when I was in work so definitely can't now.
I don't do meals out except on very rare occasions and even then it's just an Indian.

These things are nice but I honestly don't understand how anyone on benefits manages them...they are not a necessity. Now Internet access........that IS a necessity these days.

I have never been on holiday. Meh. Not fussed. If we could afford to I would save for years and take my girls to florida. But I wouldnt do without for it.

Saying that thats the way things were has no bearing on how things are now or how they should be.

Should we go back to slavery or imprisoning gay people? No. We are supposed to be moving forward and progressing.

Xenia.

I see where you are coming from, but any comparison on this subject just finds that society has changed. It really doesn't tell us anything more, except people have different expectations now. We used to send children up chimneys and there was no education provision, but its a good thing that society changed.
It is ironic that you mention old age and the care of the elderly falling on their children. I read a report from a professor of Sociology (can't remember University) a few years ago that suggested that state care/private care would be the only care. He suggested that children who had attended institutions throughout their childhood would treat their elderly parents in the same way, as they had not experienced care from their parents from birth. Not saying I agree or otherwise, but certainly food for thought.

On earning money by writing, there is nothing special about me but I manage to do that so I am just suggesting people have a go as it is a way to earn money without being able to move much other than to type and without leaving the house. Be positive

How many books have you had published Xenia?

Do you think just anyone can earn money by writing?

Xenia, I actually think there IS something special about you. You are healthy, intelligent and had a strong sense of who you were and what you wanted at a young age. I don't know what your background is as a child but I am assuming you didn't starve, go cold or hungry.

Contrast that with a child growing up in poverty. How likely are they to have a strong desire to succeed, study, prove themselves if they are hungry, have a chaotic home life etc.

You are special.....your intelligence and drive makes you special. I doubt I have anything like your IQ and nor do many others. That's why you are able to write, that's why you have books published and that's why you have a high powered and well paid job and good luck to you because you deserve it. It's am worth being aware that others also work hard too though, either in employment or as parents or Carers. And some of them need benefits to live and participate in society.....you might think these benefits are generous. I think they meet the basics and no more....and I n luxe Internet access in those "basics".

People on this thread write better than I do and I wrote 30 books or something like that (not that there is a huge amount of money in books by the way but it is just something most people can do who can sit at a computer and type on mumsnet just about whatever their circumstances which is the only reason I brought it up).

JB, often it is the other way round though.. the children of the rich often don't work and turn to drugs for satisfaction in life. The children of the poor are often the new entrepreneurs because they are so so sure they do not want to live in poverty for life. Childhood deprivation can be the force some need to do well in life a force that those in the middle don't seem to have.

Anyway I was only trying to encourage people. Women in Britain (more than men) don't want solutions or routes out of poverty. They want to sit around moaning with friends who keep saying poor you how awful. They don't actually want to do anything which involves hours of hard work and might fail. They'd rather sit around having a moan whilst the state keeps them in internet connections and food.

i'm not sure who that's directed at. the people who've mainly posted are either working, like myself, carers and/or disabled themselves, or desperately looking for work.

how these qualify as sitting around moaning i'm not sure. if the disabled, carers and unemployed who are desperate for work don't merit keeping in food by the state i'm not sure who you think does xenia

Xenia..."Internet connections and food" - behave yourself .

For an educated and seemingly intelligent person Xenia, you can come across as incredibly thick at times.

Of all the threads you have contributed to on subjects such as this, many people have detailed things that are obstacles to a route out of poverty and things that have put them into poverty.

You still fail to grasp that though? you don't seem to get that most people are not as priveliged as you.

Actually I don't think there is anything special about Xenia... sorry Xenia, that sounds harsh doesn't it! I think Xenia has got where she is by putting her needs first and working at her job a lot. That may be asperational to a lot of folk, it doesn't do a lot for me. I don't admire her more because she works 50 weeks a year or takes 2 weeks maternity leave. I do admire the way she wholeheartedly belives in what she does and what she says, many people could do with some of her self esteem.

But if Xenia is special then we all are, I might not have written books but I work hard and love my children and try to be a good mum to them, thats my idea of special.

And BTW this isnt a personnel attack on Xenia, although it does come across as that, it was just my thoughts after reading JakeBullets post above. I know posting this won't hurt Xenia in the slightest, she's read worse on here than my ramblings!

Perhaps it's just a return to the norm across the planet - that your family cares for you and state will have no money to help much at all and you'll have to tolerate your awful mother or dreadful father whether you like it or not and/or keep in with your children.

I for one fucking hope not, my father abused me sexually and my mother emotionally, the day I managed to leave home with the help of a job and some benefits was a happy, happy day.

Things just aren't simple Xenia, reason I need all these benefits and the like is because I don't have family to rely on, and I don't have friends to help (my best friend has cerebral palsy, I wouldn't even ask for help she has it so hard) because I was an army child and anyone I ever knew growing up has scattered to the wind. All my neighbours do is shout at me about my kids noise levels disturbing their sleep (or let their horrid dog in my back garden to almost kill my rabbit).

No one cares about me and my kids, except me, and you know when we were threatened with homelessness just before Christmas, I went into the job centre and told the man I needed a job and he refused to help on the grounds that I wasn't fit to work, or job seek. The government is the only place I have to turn so I can live, and I don't do it because I expect it, or believe I am entitled. I do it because I am desperate to keep my two children who I love more than life itself. To then feel like I need to defend why I have the internet but haven't turned it into a thriving business so I can make my own money, it's frustrating. I am barely coping with my life the way it is, I am focusing on improvements, therapies, drugs, counselling, letting my carer lighten the load so I can rest.

Actually trying to work at this point in my life would be the stupidest thing I could consider doing. When all the focus should be on being well, getting the household stable, routine for the children, diagnosis and treatment, therapies etc. How sustainable would that be? Maybe I could get a job, but when I am sick a month or two later, then again after that, and the same on and off all year, how long will that job last?

The ambition to work is there. I am human under my disability, and I want to achieve as much as anyone. In fact I have a long term plan to eventually achieve what I want, and I am playing a long game, which focuses on doing things in the right stages so that when it comes to it, I'll be able to do a damned good job and make a load of money and gain status maybe as a worthy human being.