"Strivers vs Skivers" - what do you think?

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

Prompted by a blog post this week from MN Blogger Sonya Cisco, and this opinion piece by BlogFest panellist Zoe Williams, for our first blog-prompt of the New Year we thought we'd ask for your thoughts on the current debate around benefits cuts.

According to both Sonya and Zoe, politicians have deliberately encouraged us to think of people as either 'skivers' or 'strivers' in order to pit people on low incomes against one another - and to divert attention from the fact that the economy simply can't provide enough jobs.

Do you agree with them? And if not - why not? Post your URLs here if you blog - or, if you haven't got a blog (why not? ) do tell us what you think here on the thread.

if they were 'dependent' that would imply they couldn't survive without them.

surely that would be the fault of low incomes rather than topping up the low income?

Surprised at gordon brown being blamed for tax credits?!

duchesse?

On minimum wage though a farm labourer woukd be eligible for benefits. Housing and council tax support, probably income support as well so theu woukd not be living on £10k a year....it woukd be £10k a year plus any benefits they were eligible for.

on ten k they wouldn't be eligible for housing benefit or council tax support - as i've just found out to my detriment.

What NOTHING.....even privately renting?

Must go onto the calculator and sed what it comes up with for me. Never found it that accurate tbh.

i am privately renting and earning less than that believe it or not (part time and pro rata salary due to being term time only position) and despite being told i would be i've just had my decision back saying i'm not entitled to any housing benefit or council tax benefit.

i'm as shocked as you are and a bit daunted! i get ctc and wtc and that is it. no longer entitled to school dinners obviously and have added on costs of a work wardrobe, travel etc and will sometimes need childcare going forward.

housing benefit and council benefit has been changed more radically than is being let on. the publicised bit is that people who are not working at all will have to pay 10% in many areas - the bit that isn't coming through and i hadn't realised till it hit me is how much it will hit those on low incomes or those returning to work for the first time. i got a 4 week run on of HB then straight to nothing even though entitledto.com had said i'd get around £18pw HB when i checked i could afford to take the job.

ho hum. i really do not know where these people who get the life of larry on benefits or working part time and rolling in the top ups live!

however i'm doing good things at work - have been there two months and have already successfully written a bid for funding to pay for stuff i was going to do anyway, made lots of headway on links with the community and faith groups and sourced lots of voluntary support and services for the college and i can only hope and pray i can build my role up and beyond it's original remit and land on a better pay scale. if not well then i'm poor but productive i guess - my job is real in that i actually make things happen that are positive for society and i'm really independent and self governed. i doubt i'd feel so peaceful about being financially screwed if it was so that tescos could have cheap labour and i could be micromanaged by some dogsbody eejit half my age.

utterly confused now - been on entitled.to again and it says i'm entitled to £35 per week in HB and some ctb.

nothing is making sense.

This is what I mean about its accuracy. Xenia feels from her input that she would get £24k a year for not working. The reality is that she would be unlikely to get anything like that amount, especially as some benefits cancel each other out. For example Income Support is calculated into mine but it doesnt remove the £58 Carers Allowance I get...so it shows an extra amount on top of the CA which I dont get as its deducted directly from my income support....I look much better off from their cslculations. Xenia take note before chucking in that high powered job love .

yeah on that calculator i look at least £45pw better off than i actually am. have just re-examined my housing benefit award letter and according to the rates of disregard, amount required to live on, percentage of excess income included etc etc they're absolutely right - i'm not entitled to a penny. so please don't think these calculators are accurate - i wish it was because £45 pw towards my rent and council tax would be bloody helpful right now

now according to the spin of universal credit it is exactly people like me who would be better off because the benefit removal taper rate would mean i didn't lose as much when i went back to work whereas at present the taper rate is dramatic for people in my situation.

in reality the universal credit calculator and the gov pdf doc i found on UC and the graphs there in show that i would actually be getting even less than i'm currently getting under.

so if it doesn't benefit a single mother going back to paid employment and doing 'the right thing' who does it benefit? presumably those on higher incomes than me who previously didn't qualify for tax credits?

and before anyone says i should work more hours - this is the job there was and when i work out the hourly rate it is actually pretty good - i'd have to work twice as many hours in a minimum wage job to earn this much and i'd then incur masses of childcare costs that would be offset by the government on top of the same income top up needed so i'd actually cost the taxpayer more if i worked in a job with more hours.

this just shows how crap UC will be if thats the case swallowed

its ok people saying work more, I've been begging for more hours but they arent available, the work isnt there anymore, most people would love more hours if they could actually do them

I presume the £24k for an idle Xenia and 2 teenagers is mostly housing benefit and I suppose if you don't work the state pays you some money for your children too.

So why don't the Devon poor move to areas where wages are higher, camp on sofas of friends ( we are using the example of Devon man with no children here).

Gees, Xenia, maybe the collective Devon poor don't know anyone in these mythical lands of plentiful work with decent wages, or don't know anyone who has a spare couch going free, perhaps that's where you workhouse ideal comes in?

What an apt thread on a day when it's been announced we are likely facing triple-dip recession.

I just cannot understand how people, usually high earning, seemingly intelligent people, cannot make the link between the number of jobs being a fraction of the number of unemployed.

Why do benefit claimants automatically become "idle" when clearly the economy has left them with no other option?

There is also an issue of mismatch of skills with employment opportunities. When industries die, highly-skilled workers are left with no employment options. This is not their fault (though not a reason for state subsidy of obsolete industry either).

I've never suggested it is easy to get jobs at the moment. I didn't understand why they were thinking of special arrangements for foreign fruit pickers this week due to a massive shortage why we cannot rustle them up in the UK but other than that there are few areas of the country with many jobs but even so a lot of Spaniards and Greek have come to London recently to get work and do find it easier than at home. It is not impossible.

I am sure everyone on the thread woudl agree that some areas of the country have few jobs and are poverty stricken and that a lot of us have had to move hundreds of miles leaving family behind to find work (as have I).

and those areas have the very high rents you don't want to subsidise xenia.

apart from which i don't think the whole country moving to the south east is really that feasible.

I am laughing about the unreality of "an idle Xenia", lets be honest Xenia....you would NEVER be idle rich or poor.

So the solution is for everyone to pile into London? Okay.

Hasnt a breakdown of extended families been blamed for some of Britains problems today?

People already have moved to where the jobs were. It doesnt work. Life isnt all about work work work.

Most people want to remain caught in inertia sighing and saying there is nothing to be done to improve their lot, which is why the very few of us prepared to get on a bike do incredibly well. Long may many remain of the idle bent as it benefits those of us who aren't.

Anyway let us hope universal credit improves things although I have no faith that it will. It is still complicated. There are lots of add ons for different circumstances.

There is some good in the benefits claimants having to pay 10% of council tax however rather than thinking they get council services for nothing and they are often the heaviest users of council services.

It has been explained in both detailed and simple terms to Xenia and others so many times on similar threads.

They don't want to understand as that may force them to alter their static mindset.

Willful ignorance.