Should I tell DB that he shouldn't marry his girlfriend?

[whatwereyouthinkinof]

My very lovely 'knight in shining armour' type brother has just announced today that he and hisbitchofa girlfriend are going to get married.

This girlfriend is selfish, self aggrandising, appallingly (aggressively) rude, profligate, demanding, manipulative, and loudmouthed opinionated ... I will not bore you by going into detail, (unless you want me to) but I am not using any of those words lightly.

My brother may not be a young lad but is quite naive where relationships are concerned and it breaks my heart to see him being used as he is by her...he has aged 10 years in the last 24 months...I dont believe he has actually 'asked' her, but as she has been telling him for months that he needs to set a date and I think he has finally caved because they have a baby together.

Our poor Mum is in despair...she cannot abide the woman...and is already in a state about how to tell her son that she cannot in all concience attend his wedding.

I love my DB and DN and don't want to lose them...Should I tell him to throw off his rose coloured spectacles and see her for what she is?.... or keep biting my tongue and dreading family gatherings (and taking to cope) for the rest of my life?

As far as I can see, if this poor bastard is in an emotionally abusive relationship it is because that is what he was modelled at home.

Thinking all your brother's girlfriends are evil bitches he needs to protected from says a lot about your desire to dominate him, even if you (claim you) said nothing.

Read the bit about their introduction, and how she was "draped" over her boyfriend and didn't stand aside so his sister could give her customary kiss.

It reads like the OP needed to mark her territory.

How was a new girlfriend supposed to know there was a "customary" kiss that she needed to stand aside for?

And the list of complaints seems to include a lot of stuff that are just sexist nit picking - how they split chores, including night waking is a matter for them and no indication of abuse.

The inverted commas around "violent" to describe her previously abusive relationship is really fucking horrible.

So to balance this what is your DB like? "knight in shining armour" sounds very 'rose coloured glasses' to me.
As others have said, she has 3 DCs to think of, I don't blame her for wanting the security of marriage and a home in her name. She gave up her council house, that was very brave, a huge commitment to your DB, as was having another baby, probably a decision she didn't take lightly. What sacrifices has your brother made? He hasn't had to move, still goes to work etc etc.
Yes she sounds a bit rough but your DB obviously likes that in a woman. It's hardly a hanging offense.

if the sexes were reversed, everyone would be screaming RED FLAGS

"It reads like the OP needed to mark her territory."

Quite the reverse. When a new partner meets a family member for the first time, it is customary to make space for the family member. Staying draped over a new bf/gf is EXACTLY like marking one's territory. It is saying (in this case) "stay away, I own him now". Anyone with grace or manners separates from their new partner to greet a member of his/her birth family and defers to the original and still far more important relationship.

I think "bunny boilerish" is a great description of this kind of person. There is nothing misogynist about it. It refers to someone who cannot respect boundaries and thinks that having sex with someone gives you ownership rights. Its general use is, sadly, sexist as there are plenty of "bunny boilers" of both sexes.

Hi OP, I've been in your shoes and would say something, but in a supportive are-you-happy kind of way rather than all guns blazing 'you shouldn't marry her'. My battery is about to go but I'll be back on later. You have my sympathy, it's a difficult situation to be in.

you sound HORRIBLE now OP!

during the mat leave most men frequently come home to a "house in chaos" and that includes families of 3!

I think you missed my original point too, I meant that maybe you and your DM are dominant and "own" him and he might actually quite enjoy bringing someone round that speaks up to you both a bit! especially if he is your doormat "knight in shining armour"--

If the sexes were reversed and a woman's brother was posting about how he and her father never liked any of her partners and that she needed them to protect her from marrying the man she loved, yes people would be talking about red flags.

I agree larry

My bil (dh's brother) was sucked in, chewed up and spat out by his first wife.
He is vulnerable in many ways. He's a sucker for a sob story, and has all the common sense of a toddler. He has a long history of making stupid choices and getting burned, then suffering crashing depression.

Anyway, he picked up this horror online, and brought her over here from the States to marry her. An hour in her company and every alarm bell was clanging. She was quite clearly a total fantasist, and he just sat there with eyes like saucers lapping up every drop of bullshit as the gospel truth. The lies were incredible.

What with one thing and another she went back to the states, and he sent her money...lots and lots of money. He visited frequently but was not allowed to stay with his wife, as her parents did not approve of him. So he stayed in a hotel.

I could type for an hour about the sly, manipulative fabrications she pedalled out to keep the money coming in.

Eventually he was broke, and couldn't do any more. She divorced him.

Right at the beginning we tried to talk him out of the marriage, as we could see her exactly for what she was...she wasn't very good at hiding it.
He dug his heels in, and didn't speak to dh or I for three years...the duration of his relationship with her.

He has now (about 5 years later) f=got another one on the go...from Argentina. However, though she is clearly an oddball, so is he and they make a nice couple. He's not giving her any money, and she comes over to stay with him, and he visits her too. It all seems kosher.

He still describes his first wife as "the most compelling and intelligent woman I have ever met" though.

She was neither of those things...she was a monster.

There is no helping some people. Very frustrating when it's someone you care about. Don't make the mistake we did, and try to intervene. He will choose her.

Just sit tight and hope she fucking fucks off asap.

Eleanor...yes she is an abuse survivor and I tried very hard to have sympathy and understanding...but I know her exs previous gf and his current one have never seen any sign of aggression from him ... and if anyone should know the limits of a younger brothers temper it is a torment of an older sister.
I'm sorry but I would not keep my children in a potentially dangerous home no matter how much I wanted the house ... but finding nothing admirable in exposing them further to a violent man must mean I'm a coward as well as obviously a snob (ffs)..
She comes from a middleclass family actually (though that revelation was a shock to everyone!) .. She was so abusive and violent to her mother that her father kicked her out when she was 18...She brags about how she was a 'wild child' and tried 'everything'...(and thinks it acceptable that her children 'defiantely will too') . If she is 'common' it is by inclination, not upbringing...She moved in with her ex and had 2 children with him, and THEN married him despite knowing for 6 years how violent he was!...She chose to marry a man who had already exhibited violence towards her, it was not something that only occurred after she sanctified their union. She never speaks of him expressing fear... only aggression in equal measure. she claims that she finds the smacking of children abhorrent and was horrified that my mother had smacked me as a toddler (different era and she only did it twice..in dangerous situations) to the point of refusing my Mums offer to sit with baby (in their home) so she could get a few hours sleep...Yet she had to be restrained from attacking her older daughter with scissors!!
I do not believe I have ever been critical of anyone forced to claim benefits...I do NOT however approve of anyone even suggesting defrauding the system by hiding redundancy money in order to claim benefits intended for people genuinely in need.
As to expecting DB to help with his son...DB more than does his share of the parenting....but to expect anyone to sit up for 4 or 5 hours a night (not an exaggeration..the baby doesnt sleep for more than 20 mins at a time) when he has a 20mile busy m'way drive to do early in the morning and has no chance of catching cat nap when baby does during the day is irresponsible (and his falling asleep at his desk is probably the reason he was made redundant..just lucky it was only the desk he fell asleep at, not the wheel of the car!).... and I DO understand how hard it is as I had exactly the same problem with an unsleeping baby myself until 2 years ago, but as I was safe at home with my baby all day, and as my Dh had a long drive and a high concentration job too, I didnt think for one minute of asking him to do more than the occasional ebm night feed ... But perhaps I should have risked him having an accident so I could catch up on my sleep for the 2+ years my DS didnt sleep through...
Oh and as to being prepared to pick up the pieces? I'm sure Jesus would have wept if I had no room for him when she finally makes it impossible for him to live in his own home....or do you think that anticipating disaster is willing it?
I havent met you, so shouldnt judge...but as you have deemed me a Hyacinth Bucket on equal evidence I may not feel so guilty when saying that your response reads much very like you and my potential SIL (shudders) would get along very well.

Inertia- In our church the congragation are asked to support the couple in their marriage and we are expected to respond 'yes'...I would have difficulty in saying that. Yes, he is a grown up... a meticulous, hard worker, a gentleman with a strong sense of responsibility and honour but a sucker for a sob story and has something of the martyr complex someone mentioned earlier on the thread and I freely admit I have never got out of the 'watching out for him' big sister mode.... It is part of "being family" as far as my family are concerned.

Croccy- No, I dont think he loves her...he was attracted by her physique, her neediness and to a certain extent her forthright attititude (Mum is quite forthright... but has always tempered it with impeccable manners and a good dose of plain old common sense) Thank you for having the courage to say you would speak up ...I am so tempted...If it was just me who would lose out I am certain I would go against all the sage advice of the more lovely ladies on here but my Ds adores his uncle and cousin and my Dh gets on really well with him.... Seeing my poor Mum torn apart with anguish over the situation and biting her own forthright tongue until it bleeds is awful to watch...but if we fall out who will be there to catch him when it all goes horribly wrong? But it is wonderful for me to read your response and know that someone else understands. Thank you.

NonoMum- Honestly????? You TRULY believe that having an 'accident' (HER words, not his or mine!) very early in a relationship, taking financial responsibility not only for the baby, but taking her and her violent rude children all into his home and supporting, (feeding & clothing them all as their father refuses to pay maintainance) being a hands on father to his child (even though he isnt 'allowed' to criticise or dicipline her older two) and having his relationship with his blood relations severely curtailed because she hates the fact that we are a close family, and hers' isn't, is NOT enough???? You think he should marry her, commit to her before God and serve a life sentence ????? You think she should hold his son over him to make him bow to her every command 'until death' ??? REALLY???? Big fan of hanging drawing and quartering too?

"..but I know her exs previous gf and his current one have never seen any sign of aggression from him .."

FFS , have you never heard the term "street angel house devil"???
do you expect abusers to be easy to spot from the outside? do they walk around with food stained wife-beater vests and dirty stubble???? WTF OP???

you sound viler with every post OP, with the first one I thought, hmm could go either way, but not now.

She sounds like the female equivalent of a cock-lodger.

I understand OP. I do.

Like us at the time of bil's mad adventure, we fumed over every incident of her awfulness...of which there were many.

I am telling you now, with hindsight - you are too involved. He will choose her.

Remove yourself from the intricacies of their relationship. It is only going to eat you up. They will carry on regardless.

I agree that the OP has a closed opinin when it comes to her brother...but I do not think she is anything approaching vile.
There is no need for that.

Having his relationship with his blood relatives curtailed. In other words she's told him now he has a baby he needs to spend more time at home not hanging around his mums house?

I agree OP, you aren't vile, but you do sound to be far too involved in your brother's life. He's an adult so should be capable of making his own choices without the involvement of his mother and sister. He chose to get involved with this woman, he chose to have a child with her, he chose to move her and her older children into his house, and now he's choosing to marry her. It really is none of your business.

You say he doesn't love her, but really that's incredibly presumptuous. You've also been critical of his previous girlfriends, so this isn't a one-off. How would you feel if your brother suddenly revealed similarly negative feelings about your DH?

Stay out of their relationship. Maybe it won't work out, and he'll end up in your spare room (it is odd that you've been keeping that ready for him), or maybe they'll happily grow old together. Either way, it's up to him.

"if anyone should know the limits of a younger brothers temper it is a torment of an older sister."

"She moved in with her ex and had 2 children with him, and THEN married him despite knowing for 6 years how violent he was!...She chose to marry a man who had already exhibited violence towards her, it was not something that only occurred after she sanctified their union."

So it was really all her fault that he hit her.

"I freely admit I have never got out of the 'watching out for him' big sister mode.... It is part of "being family" as far as my family are concerned."

As far as your abusive-sounding family dynamic goes, that might be normal.

But in happier families we let our little brothers grow up and support them in their life choices.

You seem to have an opinion on every little thing they do and have an astonishing level of knowledge of how they organise their time.

Maybe she married her ex after the violence so she would get something?

Maybe she is marrying your brother so she can divorce him and take half?

Maybe she is marrying him because she loves him?

I would say, you have difficulty saying congratulations as you feel she treats him badly but if it is what he really wants then you will be there for him.

Hmmm..well the thread fairly moved on apace while I was typing and playing with my DS.
Thank you for the fabulous understanding responses Christabel et all... for all those who tried to give support in either direction of the 'to speak or not to speak' question...interesting that those who say 'speak' have mostly been in the same situation themselves.
For those jumping on the character assasination bandwagon, thank you for reminding me why I stopped using Mumsnet as a sounding board at midnight when I couldnt sleep for worry....and why I probably won't bother again...I mean, come on!...to criticise our family dynamic because we CARE! I genuinely hope you don't have to face such a situation in 20-30 years time with your childrens choices !!!
For the record I said my DB had a history of chosing bunny boilers...not that they were ALL bunny boilers...the one that stabbed his best friend was a bit of one... and the one one that had injunctions out on 3 neighbours, 2 cases of workplace bullying/constructive dismissal pending and caused her neighbour to commit ABH on my brother while they were together and then stalked him for 2 years after they split was quite bad...but whether you believe me or not I NEVER said a word against either of them! I even invited one of them to my wedding and spent more time helping her choose her dress than I did mine!.... He actually also had some rather nice GFs who I also didnt say anything for or against (despite hoping that one in particular was 'the one' for him because she was great fun) but who were probably not needy enough for him.

What sort of church do you belong to? And the phrase "sanctified their union" sounds odd in this day and age, would you and your family be fairly evangenical/full-on Christians?

OP - I have to say...your role of big sister certainly does not make you the authority on how your brother conducts himself as a partner. The dynamic is completely different.
Lots of abusive people are able to convince their loved ones that they are as pure as the driven snow.

I'm nopt saying your brother is secretly abusive...I don't think he is. I just think your watertight opinions about him and his gf are foolhardy. You think you know the score...but you may not.

You are too involved. The room ready for him at yours is inappropriate.

HeyHoHereWeGo It' a very tricky thing to get right though. If the OP says too much or steps over the line now she will lose her brother straight away. As people have said here already he will choose his partner if pushed. It's what happens in these situations.

Actually Recharge...no...we are not. Perhaps I read too many historical novels in my youth.

Your brother sounds like he has a lot of problems. Accidental pregnancy, stabbings, ABH, stalking, choosing to marry someone he doesn't love because he is attracted to her physique.

Maybe getting married will help him to grow up and he'll settle down with his new family and start to lead a more mature and peaceful life.