Physically deformed man in cafe upset kids.

[hairylipsquid]

I met some other mums and their pre-schoolers in a cafe. After we'd sat down I noticed that a group from a local day care centre for special needs adults were sat at the adjacent table with their carers.

One of the men had a severely deformed head and face (I have to admit it did take me back somewhat). He seemed like he was trying to smile at the kids and made grunting noises like he was trying to say hello, bless him.

The 2 and 3 year-olds in the group (mainly the girls interestingly, the boys tended to just stare) started to scream and cry and say things like 'scary man mummy'. The mums pretty quickly whisked them out of the cafe.

I stayed put but had to answer some pretty loud questions from DS like 'what is the matter with that man?'. (Cue 'some people are born different', 'remember when you watch 'Something Special' conversation.)

It made me feel sad (not only for that poor man although I'm not sure he really understood what was happening) that the knee-jerk reaction had been to remove the children out of sight of the 'scary man'. Or did they do the right thing as their pfb's were being distressed by him?

What would you have done?

Ooops.. Cardinal sin of posting having only read one page.

GAFG. Brilliant. There isn't enough of it. Hence far too many indulged, wussy and subsequently PITA DCs around. IMO.

I like the GAFG school of parenting
There are sooo many applications for it.

I used to use it when DCs were trying to skive school saying they were ill.
Or not wanting to pick up the dog poo when they take her for a walk.

School used it once when DS1 had an accident playing rugby and didn't phone expecting him to get his usual bus home...he rang me in pain to come and pick him up and it turned out he had a broken ankle!
School

As for not knowing where hands have been.
WTF.
Has any one ever looked at the ATM pads,they are disgusting.
And shopping trolleys?

Excellent post Pagwatch.

My DS is 3. I lost my leg a five years ago. To him my situation is normal as is his daddys who has two legs.

He comes to hospital with me and has met people who are much much worse off than me and he doesnt pay any attention at all.

His friends are also used to me and quite fascinated my my 'special' leg. If anyone asks when we are out and about(and they do) I tell them I had a road traffic accident, for young children I usually say I had an accident and my leg was hurt, the Drs couldnt fix it so they gave me this new one. My son helps me to do the things I find difficult such as picking things up from the floor for me and fetching my leg.

My point is just that in my experience children generally are pretty relaxed about disabilitys such as mine as long as it is explained to them in a positive way. I have found that the more fuss an adult makes the more the child reacts.

I realise that SN children and adults are a totally different situation. When we encounter people who act slightly differently to myself or my son I just explain that every one is different inside and out and there is no need to be frightened.

I hope my son continues to help people out less fortunate than himself. I also hope he teaches the people around him not to be frightened of people who are a bit different.

I dunno, these are 2 and 3 y/o's in the OP. Terrified toddlers are not very skilled in getting a grip, neither are they the easiest people to reason with. Depending on how upset the child was, I might have removed mine and had the 'everybody's different' talk later on when they calmed down.

Why should somebody with a disability have to put up with a toddler meltdown at the next table just because it's some sort of learning experience for the toddler?

I dunno, but I think by removing the child you are sending the message that there is something to be afraid of.

A friend of mine has terrible facial burns and only 1 finger left per hand after being involved in a car accident in her teens.

She came to a party at ours last year and the children there (4-5 year olds) were absolutely fascinated by her, but not in a rude way, they were very matter of fact about it, asked her (quite bluntly, but she didn't mind) why her face was how it was and when she told them, they accepted it and then demanded she play with them... I'm really quite that 2-3 year olds were screaming and saying scary man in the OP, as if anything the younger the child the less likely they are to be bothered, in my experience.

I agree with those who say that it is mostly parents imposing their prejudices on their kids. In my experience, most negative experiences i've had when out with my SN son, sister or service users have been from aduls not children. On one occasion a woman in a supermarket actually took it upon herself to hit my son for what she perceived to be his "terrible behaviour" he was hand flapping and screaming.

Occaionally I have encountered children who have become upset by the appearance of some of the adults I worked with. I think mostly it is just a fear of the 'unknown' if they have not come across physical difference before. However, most often children are the most accepting group of people and obviously I expect the parents of those that do become upset to subscribe to pag's school of parenting :o

Goodness, not sure I should post on here.

In answer to the OP - I think and hope that I would have done exactly as you did - but IF DS had had a screaming crying fit (which I doubt he would) I would probably have removed him from the immediate vicinity if he was pointing at the man in question and shouting "scary man!"(I might have just taken him to the loo rather than leaving the shop though). If it was not remotely obvious why he was screaming and crying then I would have sat it out and tried to calm him down, explaining as you did that people are different and some look different etc. etc.

However, I don't believe DS would have had the screaming crying reaction - he's more likely to go the curious route (he's 3.1) and ask loud questions, repeatedly until he gets an answer.

Having said all that - we were at the markets the other day and a man was shouting and swearing in a very uncontrolled manner. He was with a younger man who appeared to be a carer, and he may have had Tourette's syndrome, with or without other issues. He WAS quite scary, loud, intimidating and very sweary - but we just moved on and told DS that he was a man who wasn't very well. DS seemed utterly unconcerned by it. I was more bothered he would repeat the words he was hearing!

Riven - I never cease to be horrified by the things that happen to you and your DD. :(. I do NOT know why the TT co-ordinator paid the slightest bit of attention to the woman, as usually there are alternative classes to go to (there were at mine anyway) and she could have just gone to a different one. Stupid bitch.

Spero - disgusting behaviour of the woman at the swimming pool - up there with some of the residents around Headley Court who object to the patients being seen outside the grounds (lots don't, there are a few who do). But not quite as disgusting as many of the people of a select Residents Association, who objected to one of "their" properties in Ashtead being used for the families of disabled soldiers - in case their children saw the disabled soldiers, in case the family home drew terrorist attacks or in case they were some kind of "rough element" . Thankfully SSAFA prevailed and the home was set up.

I am quite taken aback by children being scared. I am fairly sure from similar situations that my children would have found it intriguing and either asked questions or ignored him. Odd noises might have prompted giggles but I'd have put a stop to that. But scared and crying? i don';t think so.

However when DS1 and DD were younger DH worked in a residential home for adults with learning difficulties - we often use to meet DH and some of his clients going shopping - they used to like to come up and talk to the children. Maybe that helped.

thumbwitch - I didn't know that. Awful. I think any kind of prissy oooo I can't bear to look (then don't!) attitude towards disability is shocking, but to act like that towards young men and women who have ended up disabled after serving in the armed forces, is just doubly repulsive.

dd2 gets scared.

I don't know why - she has been around disability all her life.

but she does.

granted, not to hysterical shrieking and crying point, but scared nonetheless.

try as I might, the GAFG method is not working (and trust me, I am good at GAFG)

growing up is working, a little. she is not as scared as she used ot be (strangely, this is since she started at pre-school, and now has access to more NT children than she has ever seen before!).

we talk, she calms down, and we go through it all again when she next sees a person with a disability.

Spero - this is the house and there is a little mention about the "controversy". Thankfully, Mole Valley council stuck it to the snooty residents by approving the plans. I signed the petition, sent it to loads of my friends to sign, and read the letters of complaint that Mole Valley Council received. I kid you not, they turned the stomach - the worst kind of NIMBYism I have ever seen :(.

I am somewhat at a whole group of two and three ear olds screaming and shouting "scary man" I wonder whether it's more likely that one child reacted (a man unable to smile properly might have been seen as pulling scary faces) and the rest followed?

As for the poster whose ds became hysterical in a library, well that's all very well, but why on earth did you indulge him when he continued to be scared even on future occasions? It's one thing to comfort a child when the object of the initial fear is actually there, quite another to indulge his over emotional state over something that isn't actually there any more. Perhaps the reason why he is so over emotional is because you've never applied the GAFG school of parenting and have instead chosen to pander to him.

I have encountered many curious children in my time, from those that just plainly want to know why I can't see, to those that ask why I don't open my eyes, and all the ones that want to know about the dog.

I think that we have to remember that the uneducated children of today will grow into the ignorant adults of tomorrow.

Riven tbh I don't think that being in close contact with children with sn necessarily makes a difference to hw children perceive others. I think that on the whole children do notice difference and it does start to affect them when they get to a certain age. I attended a school for children with visual impairments, and the children there were o less cruel to those that were different to them than if they'd all been fully sighted. I think in some ways it's like a throwback to nature where only the fittest survive and the weakest are picked off to ensure survival of the fittest. It's not right but it is unfortunately a part of growing up, and it is for us as adults to educate the children not to be like that.

Much as I love the GAFG approach (and I think it should go into the mn acronyms list) not all toddlers can be reasoned with in the middle of a hissy fit. Useful technique for older kids though.

I agree with PlentyofParsnips - if my 3 year old had really been kicking off, I may well have removed him to spare the other customers. Then I would give him the toddler version of the GAFG talk i.e. shouting and screaming in a cafe is not good behaviour and it's very rude to call people names and stare. And follow up with the "every is different" talk.

I don't think he would shout or scream though. He'd stare and ask questions, probably. He was watching Cbeebies the other day and suddenly said "she's got one arm!" re Cerrie. I said yes, she has. He asked why and I said that's how she was born - we're we're all different. He accepted that.

Probably GAFG doesn't work there and then with many (most?) toddlers. But one has to start somewhere. You can't indulge a silly fear when they're 2 and then suddenly come over all sensible when they're 4. It's a gradual process.

Likewise table manners, and behaving in a socially acceptable fashion generally. Obviously you cut a 2yo more slack than you do a 6yo, but you can still start to reason with a 2yo (even if it doesn't actually work that well at the time!).

Thumbwitch, hurrah for Mole Valley! It is so horrible to hear that people actually sat down to write letters of complaint. That is one horrible step further than reacting badly when seeing someone out and about - I can just about try to feel some sympathy for that as it can be a shock if you are not expecting it.

But to get out a pen and paper and sit and compose a letter which effectively says 'I don't want any ugly cripples near my house' ??? How on earth can any one do that.

Lets hope they don't get the chance to find out first hand that one of the worst things aobut disability can be other people's attitudes...

pagwatch, thanks for detailing that information about your son. However I do think you're exaggerating what I wrote somewhat; it's one of the vagaries of online forums that because we're relying only on the written word it's easy to fill in the gaps with whatever pops into our imaginations.

When I said I thought it "odd" for any unaccompanied adult to be in the children's library, it could either mean "Gosh, that's odd, why on EARTH is that person here? Something must be done!" or, "Oh, that's odd, someone's here without a child. Oh well." You clearly think I meant the former. I didn't, I meant the latter.

Similarly, when you said: "I see your view that a man with sn needs to feel uncomfortable in the pursuit of one of what are probably very few pleasurable pastimes in order that your 3 year old does not experience baseless anxiety, somewhat selfish and indulgent." - again you're exaggerating what I said. Actually no, you're just fabricating this bit out of nothing. Nowhere did I say that I did anything to make this man feel uncomfortable; I said very clearly that my concern was only for my son, and that I felt sympathy for the man.

You're also assuming that my son calmed down in the library. He did not, which I'm pretty sure I said in my last post - which is why I took him out.

Got to cook dinner, I'll be back later.

Wilhemina, the point is that you felt it necessary to reassure your ds that the "scary man" would not be there again. So what would have happened if he had been there again?

"Poor DS was traumatised and for weeks afterwards would only step into that library after lots of reassurance that the man wouldn't be there any more. I used the opportunity to explain to him that the man had an illness which made him get upset like that sometimes, and that everyone is different."

You could have just dealt with it with a short simple "don't be silly ds, nothing to worry about, now let's carry on reading our book".

See, what pagwatch meant by GAFG, the thing is that here was an opportunity to let your ds know that there was nothing to be "traumatised" by. But by the ott reassurance, what you in fact did was reinforce to him that a man with ld was a thing to be feared.

Bialystock, I do see your point. However, like all concepts which are complex to explain to young children, I take the view that it will require a lot of ongoing teaching to enable my child to understand something like the existence of learning difficulties. So, if you like, Lesson 1 was me explaining to him what the man create the disturbance, and explaining that that's how some people are and everyone is different. Since then we haven't encountered anyone with SN that DS has noticed/ commented on, but no doubt we will and I'll then explain more to him in context. In fact I am hoping he'll mix with a variety of children with SN at the school which I want him to get into - they have a good record of welcoming children with SN, which is part of its appeal.

As for how I dealt with DS's fear on the following few occasions we went to the library, well you can't know how best to handle that without knowing my son. It's like leaving a child at nursery: some children will cry when left and then stop as soon as the parent goes. Some won't bat an eyelid. Others will cry for much longer. The 'one size fits all' approach doesn't work for all children. DS wouldn't even go near the children's library without knowing that the man wasn't there. Had we gone in and he had been there, I would have gone into Lesson 2 mode, explaining more about the man in order to help him understand that there was nothing to be afraid of.

I will NEVER forget the time we took ds to the zoo, their was a guy there in a wheelchair who was paralysed from the neck down, ds became very distressed about 'the hurt man'

I thought it was because he couldn't move and tried to explain he just used a different wheelchair to some of his friends at school (he goes to a sn school because of his autism)

But no, it turned out he was upset because they guy had a red mark on his chin from the stick where he powered his wheelchair, luckily the man found it highly amusing and happily reassured ds his chin was fine

Sarah 293: "we were asked to leave TumbleTots because some mum claimed seeing dd upset her toddler"

That is the most awful thing I've read on the Internet in a long time. I'd be tempted to write to TT even though I gather it was some time ago! That's put me right off TT forever.