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Physically deformed man in cafe upset kids.

124 replies

hairylipsquid · 12/01/2011 19:01

I met some other mums and their pre-schoolers in a cafe. After we'd sat down I noticed that a group from a local day care centre for special needs adults were sat at the adjacent table with their carers.

One of the men had a severely deformed head and face (I have to admit it did take me back somewhat). He seemed like he was trying to smile at the kids and made grunting noises like he was trying to say hello, bless him.

The 2 and 3 year-olds in the group (mainly the girls interestingly, the boys tended to just stare) started to scream and cry and say things like 'scary man mummy'. The mums pretty quickly whisked them out of the cafe.

I stayed put but had to answer some pretty loud questions from DS like 'what is the matter with that man?'. (Cue 'some people are born different', 'remember when you watch 'Something Special' conversation.)

It made me feel sad (not only for that poor man although I'm not sure he really understood what was happening) that the knee-jerk reaction had been to remove the children out of sight of the 'scary man'. Or did they do the right thing as their pfb's were being distressed by him?

What would you have done?

OP posts:
fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 12/01/2011 20:03

Yes he's a man not a monster, ffs.

LadyintheRadiator · 12/01/2011 20:06

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 12/01/2011 20:07

And Op, just because the man had a physical deformity and couldn't speak, doesn't mean he didn't understand.

LadyintheRadiator · 12/01/2011 20:10

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BialystockandBloom · 12/01/2011 20:11

Spot-on pagwatch

"Poor DS was traumatised and for weeks afterwards would only step into that library after lots of reassurance that the man wouldn't be there any more."

If the worst thing your ds has to face in life is an encounter - or not even an encounter, simply a sighting of a man with learning difficulties (shudder) in a public place, think yourselves frigging lucky.

FFS.

StewieGriffinsMom · 12/01/2011 20:11

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

corns · 12/01/2011 20:12

there's a fella who lives near us who I think has some SN - he's a bit of a local celebrity really as everyone knows him. I was once walking down the road with ds2 (who was about 2/3) and this man was walking along the other side making noises. Ds started to mimic him - I was mortified and just about to bollock ds, but noticed that this man was looking across at ds2 and smiling - they then carried on with this shouting across to each other along the road till me and d2 went into the sweet shop (which was where we were headed - we weren't escaping!) Next thing the man was knocking on the door of the shop again making noises to ds and blowing raspberries to him and then he went on his way. The shopkeeper was Shock but ds was loving it. He just thought he was a really fun man who he was playing a game with. He still remembers it today. Poor guy got beaten up a few years after that Sad so we don't see him about any more.

ByThePowerOfGreyskull · 12/01/2011 20:12

Interesting range of responses.

I think and hope I would have done what I do whenever my child seems irrationally frightened of something.
hold the child
calm the child
find out what exactly is making the child frightened,
explain clearly why this does not need to be a frightening situation.

If it felt right I would also go to the group once my child had calmed down to say hello to show my child that these are just people who have come out to have a drink, and there is nothing to be anxious about.

We saw a chap at the cinema a few weeks ago that was in a wheelchair that was almost lie flat and he had a nurse and medical equipment with him. DS2 was interested and really loudly said. Look Mummy a man in a bed coming to the cinema.
so I said just because he may be poorly doesn't mean he won't enjoy the film. DS2 said nothing more about it.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 12/01/2011 20:14

"I have to say that before he started shouting it was clear that the man had learning difficulties, so with that in mind I was glad that the children could see someone like him in their play area."

He's a man not a fecking learning project for children.

silverfrog · 12/01/2011 20:18

I (as always) agree with pagwatch.

however, I would also add that dd2 gets worried about people with disabilities. she has (obviously) had dd1 as an example all her life (severe ASD), but she still gets nervous/startled by people acting differently.

partly, she is extremely noise sensitive, so loud noises upset her (and I stress, I know this is her problem, and d not expect libraries etc to be cleared for her!), and partly she has some ASD type issues (whether sibling of SN, or whether her own issues is yet to be established) so someone behavign out of the ordinary is worrying for her.

sometimes, children do get upset by things that they percieve as "not normal" (in simplistic, childlike terms)

agree with harpsi - it is our job as parents to keep trying to explain, and keep trying to help them through it

LadyBiscuit · 12/01/2011 20:19

I love Pag's school of parenting - if my DS were old enough I'd hiss 'get a fucking grip' every time he commented on someone's weight.

I have always found the arm-waving (ho ho) about Cerrie to be slightly suspect too - my DS either hasn't noticed she has half an arm or hasn't thought fit to comment. And he's nearly four. Surely an older child would be ripe for the get a grip comment and a younger one would just be oblivious? I really suspect it's the parents who are uncomfortable

pagwatch · 12/01/2011 20:26

Ladybiscuit

I agre entirely. I think that some children may be startled or sensitive. And I know ds2s issues make him want to check up close with anyone he perceives to have an ' ouch'..
But mostly it is about the parents discomfort. Children are astonishingly able to mix in without awkwardness.

She had friendships aged 6 with children at ds2s school who were 12 years old, non verbal with all sorts if stims etc. She just needed me to say ' it's fine dd, that what he likes to do. His brain just works that way.'

She isn't unusual. Children accept that a huge fat bloke squeezes down their chimney and leaves presents ......they believe what is ok and fine from our reaction. Mostly

Sirzy · 12/01/2011 20:26

ladyBiscuit I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Often the problems are the parents not knowing how to react rather than the child having a problem themselves. Children are naturally inquisitive beings and will ask awkward questions - its how they are dealt with that is vital.

Not SN but when I was younger I had a very big strawberry birthmark on my head. Children would ask questions and they would be answered (by my parents or theres!) and yes there were children staring etc but its expected. But many adults also stared and made "she shouldn't be out in public" type comments. Its a shame those attitudes will be passed onto another generation of children.

GauchitaBell · 12/01/2011 20:33

Sirzy, "she shouldn't be out in public type comments" Shock What!? I'm shocked people can be SO ignorant!

I agree with those who have mentioned WE are the key. How we deal with these situations is vital in how our DC will react to them as well. Children can very easily pick up if parents are uneasy/uncomfortable about something, and they will take that reaction as "natural" or "expected". Pagwatch's example of Santa makes perfect sense.

LadyBiscuit · 12/01/2011 20:47

People are horribly ignorant though Gauchita - my friend had a stand up row with a bloke in a stately home a few years' ago because pushchairs weren't allowed on the tour and he was dim enough not to be able to tell the difference between a child's wheelchair and a pushchair.

I am living in a bit of a utopian dream where if we have a society where our physically and mentally disabled members aren't shut away, then our children will grow up thinking they are valid members of society. And it will be them hissing 'get a fucking grip' at their parents, rather than the other way round.

edam · 12/01/2011 20:47

Very true about the parent's reaction being at the heart of this. Maybe that's why during my own childhood none of my peer group ever made a fuss about Miss Davies and her uncorrected cleft palate, which meant she looked a bit different and the adults struggled to understand her (we children managed it but we had a major incentive as she sold ice-cream...) or any of the other people I can remember. None of the adults in my Yorkshire village or my father's home village in Wales ever made an issue out of it, so we didn't either.

ChippingIn · 12/01/2011 20:51

Wilhemina - FGS I cannot believe you are for real.

ChippingIn · 12/01/2011 20:52

To come back to the OP, yes you did the right thing, the others should have done the same - running from the place with screaming children is pathetic and disgraceful.

Sirzy · 12/01/2011 20:55

ladybiscuit that would be very nice indeed. Hopefully if we all do our bit to get our children understanding it will contribute in some way to that happening.

GauchitaBell · 12/01/2011 21:03

Ladybiscuit, yes that would be great. Grin at children hissing at parents.

reelingintheyears · 12/01/2011 21:17

I worked with people with learning disabilities for years and qualified as a nurse in that field.
We regularly took clients with severe disabilities out shopping,to pubs and on holiday and other days out.
Rarely were people in the 'community' anything other than kind and helpful even when some clients could appear disruptive and frankly frightening to people who had no experience of such (for want of a better word) differences.

I think we're being a bit too harsh on Wilhelmina,she was'nt trying to be cruel and was upset by her Ds being upset.
Sure,she could have handled his distress in a more positive way but we can all behave better in certain situations with the benefit of hindsight and experience.

As for leaving a cafe because of disabled people,what are they thinking they are teaching their children.

Riven....i would have had to be held back if i was asked to remove my Dc from TT because they were disabled. But then i was always a stroppy cow personality.

WilheminaAteHer · 12/01/2011 23:52

Wow. I am just coming back to this thread and am amazed by the vitriol that has been levelled at my post.

Firstly, I did not intend any offence and am truly sorry for upsetting people on this thread. It was totally unintentional.

To give a bit more background to the situation, DS was browsing through books some metres away from me, with his back to me (i.e. he couldn't see my reaction) and was quite close to the man when he started shouting. So what was my reaction? Only concern. Knowing DS I suspected that he would be frightened, but I sat quietly waiting to see what he did. As expected DS got scared and ran to me for comfort. And I comforted him, explaining that the man had an illness which sometimes made him shout. So to those of you who've imagined that I'm some sort of prejudiced, disability-hating bitch whose venom has rubbed off on her son...that simply is not the case.

I'll respond to your comments in turn:

PAGWATCH:

"Erm, my son will always wish to use the childrens library , even when he us 30 I expect.

He has learning difficulties. The clue us in the title. And he found War and Peace depressing..

Had my dd been crying and creating about a man shouting I would gave gently encouraged her to get a fucking grip."

Fair enough, it's quite likely that the man had been reading earlier, before I noticed him sitting down. FWIW if there were any adult in that part of the library who didn't seem to be with a child, it would strike me as odd, for the reasons I explained earlier - big library with lots of space, etc.

Re "get a fucking grip" - well, that might work for you and your kids but not for me and mine. Especially not for my then 3 year old child; IME taking that approach with a frightened child who's been alive for just 3 years is only going to amplify their terror. That is not what I'd call a brilliant way to help them see disability as normal.

GORIONINE:

Re use of Children's Library, see above.

MOUSEMA:

"If the child has the problem they should leave."

We did leave. And if the man hadn't already gone, and DS was still so upset, we'd have left first. We'd have left to help DS calm down, not as some kind of protest against the man being there.

CRUMBLETASTIC:
"And what if he had been there again, he has as much right to use the library as anyone. You should have been explaining what is was silly for him to get upset. It seems your prejudices have rubbed off on your child"

Firstly, crumble, nowhere did I say the man had no right to use the library. Please don't put words into my mouth. I said I was wondering why he was in the children's section. And on that point, please see my point to Pag.

Re your second sentence; again this comes down to parenting choices. I don't tell my child that his feelings are silly; I am vehemently against that way of bringing up a child. What I do do is comfort him when I deem it necessary, and help him to understand the situation that has upset him.

FANJO:
""I have to say that before he started shouting it was clear that the man had learning difficulties, so with that in mind I was glad that the children could see someone like him in their play area."

He's a man not a fecking learning project for children."

Hmm Well maybe this was badly worded, but the point I was trying to make was that I think it's a good thing for children to see people with as well as without disabilities. Is that offensive?

Reeling, thank you for your post.

I did say these things in my post, which appear to have been ignored:

"How awful to have that effect on people and not be able to do much about it." - is that the bit that made some of you think I was a prejudiced bitch? The fact that I was showing sympathy for the man's position?

After saying I was glad the children were seeing some with a disability: "It was such a shame, then, that his shouting became caused a disturbance" - i.e. DS's impressions of seeing this man with a disability was going to be heavily influenced by the last few minutes when he got scared, and that saddened me.

"I used the opportunity to explain to him that the man had an illness which made him get upset like that sometimes, and that everyone is different."

and

"It's such a tricky area, and I don't imagine there are any easy solutions, since there is such a wide range of types of disability and nobody can predict how a child will respond to what."

  • in other words, it's a tricky area because a child can react badly to things you can't predict. As a parent you have to balance your responsibilities to comfort, help your child to manage their own fears, and teach them about the world around them. Nobody gets that balance right all the time. Knowing my son I'm sure that had the man not made so much noise but had had a noticeable physical disability, he would have been curious but not afraid. I've always taken care to talk with him about people in wheelchairs/ with other physical disabilities whenever it's come up in conversation, and he's never reacted negatively. But if comforting him because a lot of loud shouting made him scared makes me a bad person, then you may think what you like.
gorionine · 13/01/2011 06:31

WilheminaAteHer, I do not think anyone is schocked at your son having been scared of someone being very loud or at you to have tried to comfort him. Personnally I can definitely understand a child reacting like that when they see/hear something for the first time. What was upsetting in your post was your comment at the man being there at all. Maybe it came out wrong in your post but it really sounded that you wanted to "shield" your son from seing/hearing this man again and that was just wrong because it will perpetuate the feeling to your son that indeed there was something to wory about with the presence of this man when there was not. I was in a very similar situation to you with Ds2 in the park when he was younger. One of the, I call them park warden but have actually no idea what they actually are, people who look after the park is a desabled man and he is very loud. Yes, Ds2 was scared when he heard him the first time because he thought he was being told off. I explained to him he was not told of and that this man cannot always controle the sounds coming out of his mouth but was not shouting at him in particular, being nasty or telling him off. That was that. Nothing wrong at all with comforting your son he was not born knowing about everything but do try to understand that by reassuring him that the man would not be there again, you probably made him more scared. You might try , if the situation arrise again, to let your son know that even if the man is there again, he (your) son is not to be worried because the man, as loud as he is will not hurt him.

As an asside, I go to the library, in the children section, without my children because they are in school all day but still ask me to borrow some books for them. I assume it is not unheard for a dad to do the same and I do not think that seing an adult in the children section of the library should send alarm bells unless they are behaving odly (By that I mean insistant on befriending children that are not theirs).

BeerTricksPotter · 13/01/2011 07:01

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izzybiz · 13/01/2011 07:04

I can't beleive that the children even noticed TBH, My Dd is now 6.5 and has only just started asking about disability, she didn't even noticed that the girl on cbeebies had one arm!