Emigrate for a "better life abroad" or stay....

[MrsJessRabinovitch]

...where everybody you love lives?
This is not an immediate decision but it is one of those things that I really don't know what to do and am curious as to what others would do & for those that have emigrated how they got on?

I have 3 DS's and DH & I have been considering emigrating to Canada for a couple of years-he was made redundant in November (although does now have a new job) and whilst unemployed & looking for other opportunities we found out his profession is on the preferred occupation list; we applied through an agency and because of my qualifications and the age of our boys we have been accepted (I should point out we haven't applied officially yet it is through an intermediate agency who do all the legal bits for you!)

The situation is this:

1. If I get accepted to do my doctorate next year we wouldn't go until I had finished that anyway because my qualifications aren't recognised in Canada so my 10 years experience in a job I love would be wasted and I would have to requalify out there but with my doctorate I would be a psychologist and able to work out there
2. We know a lot of people in Canada and our heads tell us (DH & I) that we would be giving our boys better opportunities and a healthier life in Canada
3. My DH is an only child & his parents have very little family-we are both worried about leaving them as although they are perfectly healthy now as they get older they might/will need our support
4. We would most likely live in Alberta-how have any ex pats living out there coped with the winters?
5. Is it "selfish" to my DSs & DH to not want to go to what could well be a better life because I don't want to leave my friends and family who I am very close to (it is all 'I' which is what makes me think it's selfish) and if we don't go will we always wonder "what might have been" or is it selfish to go and leave DH's parents without their GC and alone when they might need us as they get older? My DSs are very close to their GPs on both sides and I feel removing them from the unique relationship children have with their GPs is the wrong thing to do....

GRRRRRR!!!!! It is SO hard

Sorry this is so rambly but am all over the place with this-we certainly don't need to make the decision now but am weighing everthing up and if I don't get accepted onto doctorate we would be looking to apply in the new year as my DH already has some possible job opportunities.

Hope that all makes sense-I s'pose in a nutshell (Thank the Lord I hear you cry!) I am asking you wwyd generally and for those that have emigrated how was it?

Thanks for ploughing through the essay

( as an aside, QS I mean to say that you were leaving London for Norway when I was unhappily living in Canada and your posts about it used to make me cry :( )

Yes, Expat, and I think that is why it is necessary to weigh it up.

CAN we find a house we like and can afford within X mile radius of Y town/city/MIL/mum/work, etc.
WHAT are the extra cost of living there

as opposed to ..... Alberta

Uprooting a family of 5 to do an international relocation is not easy, especially not if there are uncertainties regards to work and income. Moving is costly, but from a financial perspective, but also emotionally. We found it totally knackering.

What will cost more: Take our things with us, or sell/stuff it all and buy new on location? We paid nearly 3k to have 8 cubic meter of "essential belongings" with us. Plus £1k plane tickets. We have paid in excess of £4k for new furniture. How much will be be able to sell your car for? How much will you be able to spend on a new car in Canada? Will you rent a house? Buy a house? What will you be able to sell your UK house for? If you decide to let your uk house, is there a mortgage on the house? Will rent cover the mortgage? What are you doing in periods where you have no tenants? Who is managing your house for you? An agent? What are their fees? How can you be sure that everything is ok with your house?
What will your tax situation be as overseas landlords? Will you be taxed both in the UK and Canada if you still own property in the UK and have a uk income? (You will have to pay 25% tax on rental income if you live abroad)

You have a lot to think about!

(notrightnot - sorry to have made you cry! I bet it is good to be back home now. I think I had lived in London too long to be able to reintegrate back home. This is home, but it isnt, if you see what I mean. I spent most of my adult life in London, my boys were born there, started nursery, school, so many milestones. It is hard to let go of a happy past in a country you have grown to love more than your own country. Also, here, life has been nothing but hardship since we got here, so it is difficult to enjoy life and the positive sides of being here, when everything is so difficult and unpredictable.)

If you are going to consider a permanent move, you need to go where you actually want to be. I think you'll be much happier working in NZ or Oz than struggling to qualify for your own profession in Canada.

As someone pointed out, once you're living an ocean away, it really doesn't matter if it's an 8 hour journey or 12 or 15. How many times a year could you do the journey? Where could you stay when you visited (all 5 of you - can be a bit squashed in your relatives' flats/houses)? Could you commit to budget enough money for that journey every year? It potentially means that the UK will always be your foreign holiday, every year. And with the kids in school you could likely only do the journey during summer or winter break.

We spend a lot of money every year arriving in the Uk to sleep on relatives' floors!

I have not found any of this a particular problem, but just want to you to be aware of it - one more thing to discuss, huh?

(QS I know just what you mean. I think that's what used to make me cry. I think about you often actually and hope that things can somehow improve for you. It is lovely being back - we are breaking the rule in Expat's lovely quotation - we live in the same area, children are back in the same school, I am back at my old place of work. Life is nicer than it ever was before, partly because we know now what we would miss if we didn't have this life here.)

Mak thanks for the warning...tbh there is no way on earth I would consider selling up and uprooting Dc's if I didn't have a visa in my hand and DH have a job waiting for him - am a pretty cautious person anyway so would no way risk leaving everything here on a wing & a prayer:)
ilovemydog I think a day in the life is a bloody brilliant idea-am going to contact the people I know and ask them to just jot down what a typical day looks like for them...thank you
notrightnow thanks for coming back we have so much to think about we really do (and I have been thinking a long time)
Also just because NZ was our first choice it doesn't mean it was the right choice and the more we looked into it the more it seemed Canada was a better decision for us for lots of reasons as well as the distance however, we are open and may look at NZ again as I can work over there right away!

LOL QS & Bugs-yes we have a lot to talk about-have rung DH and told him to get a bottle of wine on the way home as its going to be a long night

thank you all again-am off out this afternoon then working for a couple of hours so won't be posting again until tomorrow morning but I just wanted to say I really do appreciate everybody's honesty and valid opinions it has been eye opening (believe me I have talked this TO DEATH with friends and family and they didn't come up with half the arguments for & against you have)
Also QS I assumed we'd sell and use the capital from the house (pitiful probably) to set up over there -we did have the house valued and, in current market, it will be at least £20,000 after paying off debts so we were going to use this for costs over here (moving, plane tickets etc) and use the rest for a deposit on rental....we weren't going to buy a house over there until we had lived there a few years (that was the plan anyhoo)-thank you for your post though

We are in the process of considering a move to Canada also. We are pretty set on it and have decided on New Brunswick.

However, the more we have looked into it you soon realise that its hard to say which is better and there are good and bad about both countries. It just depends on what sort of life you want. We too are attracted by the wider spaces, slower pace of life (in new brunswick anyway) and the opportunity to have a bigger house for a smaller mortgage. Another major factor is the children being children for longer - happy with the life they have in this country at present (ages are 1 & 3) but not looking forward to the teenage years!

Have you tried the british expats website? Its got tons of really helpful info on it which might help with your decision making.

Good luck.

MrsJessRabinovitch - we have some friends who lived in Canada for a while and would not go back. The man is Canadian and the woman from the UK.

They say the main reason is that the weather is just so severe. It goes on and on very cold for months on end. Everwhere is you go is via car. There are upsides though. Good education, especially if you pay, and a good famly lifestyle. Houses are expensive though and the Canadian Dollar is strong.

Our next door neighbours are also similar. The man is Canadian and the woman from the UK. They are an elderly couple and again the weather is the main factor.

We looked at Canada ourselves as me and DW have both got a PhD and we have young children. We chose NZ instead and our emigration papers are being processed as we speak.

Thanks jumpy the ex pats website sounds like a great idea will have a butchers

Wow - congrats on NZ BeenBeta how exciting! Where are you going (if thats not too nosy!)? Yes the weather is a major deal breaker-I like British winters but I know they are NOTHING like the winters in Canada and the having to drive everywhere cos its so bloody cold does bother me....!

We are unsure yet but Auckland or Wellington as we need to live in a city - neither me nor DW drive at all. Altough I grew up in the countryside, I dont want to live in it.

Its a good time for us to go though as DSs are age 8 and 10.

I read about Emma Thompson taking her DD on a gap year round the world when she leaves Primary school and we feel that is partly what we are doing as we will travel to other places in the Eastern hemisphere too. If like NZ we will stay. Its more temperate than Oz although I have lots of relatives and friends there.

Look, I just have to say, there are worse places you can be than Alberta.

Sure, it's not utopia, no place is, but it's definitely the worst you can get.

sorry, not the worst you can get.

For what it's worth we emigrated from not far from you M6/south m'cr/cheshire nearly 4 years ago.

We were lucky in that we had 250k equity in the house BUT we had to buy a house get ripped off by local artisans do some work on it and live until dh was 60 last year and his pension kicked in. Due to the fall in the £ against the ? I am now looking for work. However, I would never go back. For one, I couldn't afford to as we would probably only get about 140k for the house and also I don't want to.

To me it's really sad on expat forums where they're all raving on about how you can get baked beans sent by Tesco and from there to the Limousin by courier. Yes, we go back occasionally, and I spend like a thing possessed in Costco and Booths, but then we come home. However, I used to do that when in France on holiday. Even though we're a bit isolated it's still home, and we always meant it to be.

I was going to ask if you course could be done at a distance, but I see that it can't.

FWIW I would carry on with it, but keep your options open. After all, you can always think about it in 3 years' time.

It's 9 years I've been here now.

I miss it all the time. That will never go away.

But this is my home. Everything I ever dreamed of: a real man who would marry me and want to have children, a family, came true in Scotland. I owe her much.

And here, now. Well, this is not Edinburgh. This is the real thing. Our children are a throwback.

My husband works with the area's old. They volunteer to teach me and my children to spin, to knit, to weave, to sew. For free. For the joy of it. Come sit with us next Monday. We will show you.

Our children sing in Gaelic. They know one another, no, they know. They grow up with people they have always known, really known.

There are runrig lottings here again. They have been introduced by our duke on his lands. We have applied for one. It is so popular, there is a waiting list.

I cannot put a price on such things, for such a price we cannot afford. We have not the skills. If we had, we would not be here.

But if I were sitting in London, which I consider nothing but a hole except for the rich, well, if you said Alberta or here it would be no contest, for even that a runrig holder is a vassal to his landlord, and his graft is very, very hard, he is not a slave to that which is that place.

The time has come again when tenants need the protection this landlord's money and position can give, and what does that say to a wretch like me?

To tell my children time and again to flee. They can live otherwise, both in EU and N. America. They can take their spouse with them. Such is their right.

To go where they feel free.

I don't know where this will be. Perhaps it will be Australia or New Zealand.

I don't know.

Maybe I will not have the means, then, to know even my own grandchildren, God be that I were blessed with them.

But I would die happy even so.

Most of the time, I think, this is no place for a young person to grow up or be, and yet, it made the dream of them possible.

If I were you, would I were you, I'd go.

I don't know how else to put it.

Thanks tb that is really helpful from somebody who has lived around here :)

Wow expat you just made me cry -can we come & live with you !...have just got in from work so about to pass the laptop to DH for him to look at everybodys comments but think I will read yours again thank you for your support today

Just think of it, Jess. Most of all, put yourself, as a mother, in the position of your own mother: what do I want for my children?

What will get them the best, here, now, because that is the only world we live in?

For now, the best for us is for our children to be big Highlanders.

For one, it gets them good education for here, for another they love it, for a third it makes them very good exports.

So that is now.

Tomorrow is not promised to either me or him or even them, so that is the world we have to live in.

Pros and cons, that's what you and your DH need to consider.

And these are particular to every individual.

Expat makes some really good points; it's about the here and now; what is best for your family at this moment in time. My grandfather, for instance, emigrated to the US from Canada during the depression as this was where the work was. He delayed getting married until he was able to afford it, although had been happy in Canada and would have loved to stay there. He left because there simply wasn't the work.

But think that geographical locations are secondary in happiness. Yes, they can be a factor, but when you go inside your home, close the doors, you could be anywhere.

The only exception being Hawaii which is paradise

Just popping back on again to say thanks-DH & I went through everything last night and decided the following:
the priority atm is my doctorate as a lot of the here and now decisions hinge on me being accepted on to that
our destination of choice is still Canada if we are to emigrate but we are going to explore the possiblity of other provinces particularly the Newfoundland areas and also investigate further for how many months of the year the winter in alberta makes it impossible to have any sort of outdoor life as it is ridiculous moving somewhere to have a better life for our DS's (better as in sporty/active) if we can only make the most of that 4 months a year !

expat your words have been supportive, kind and wise-DH likened you to yoda thanks again

Glad you're moving forward. With regard to NFLD I should say that they didn't top 15 degrees this year - I was there in late June and needed gloves and a scarf - no joke. Ontario has got a bad rap here but it has plenty of proper countryside and wilderness (if that's what you're after) but jobs and towns as well (and some decent weather)

Oooh thanks witless will bear it in mind :)

expat that was a beautiful piece of writing with very wise thoughts.

witlesssarah - re Ontario - you are right in many respects. My mistake was to live in the suburbs. I think my experience might have been somewhat different if we'd lived either in the countryside proper, or in the middle of Toronto

MrsJ your discussion with your husband sounds v. fruitful and sensible. I'd urge a bit of caution if you visit that British Expats forum - there are lots of very jaded souls on there ... Good luck!

I would also advice against visiting an expat forum.

I ended up on a expat forum for people having moved to Norway quite by chance one evening, and boy was that interesting reading!

Lots of people who had pretty newly arrived in Norway, and after a few weeks were "experts" and blatantly misinformed people regards to what life is like here. I am sure life seemed like that to them, but it is by no means the general idea... Some of the stories were quite hillarious. Most were homesick, too.

I would imagine it would be similar in Canada, too!

Quite. Also a lot who have taken the '£10,000 cure' - they emigrate, don't like it, move home, don't like that either, move back the original emigration place, still not happy ... then tell everyone how awful both places are!

Plan for retirement:

3 months in Canada Skiing, 3 months in Florida getting some sunshine, 3 months back in Canada enjoying the warm summer (avoiding excessive heat in Florida) three months in Florida enjoying autumn weather.

Sigh - working hard to make it happen.

The only thing I have against England really is the weather - ie it is August and it has just rained and rained and rained the last few days. I know that nowhere is perfect but is it too much to ask for a proper summer?

MJR I would say bugger it and apply - it takes quite a while for the visa to come through and then I think you have 2 years in which to trigger it.
Best of luck

A very interesting thread- thanks to all for sharing your stories.

DH is quite serious about emigrating atm, but I am so unsure because of the children's futures. However do you decide whether it's more important to have space for them to be more physical, or to have an outstanding education, or to have a sound economy so they can actually have jobs and homes and families when they're young adults?