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Emigrate for a "better life abroad" or stay....

77 replies

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 07:19

...where everybody you love lives?
This is not an immediate decision but it is one of those things that I really don't know what to do and am curious as to what others would do & for those that have emigrated how they got on?

I have 3 DS's and DH & I have been considering emigrating to Canada for a couple of years-he was made redundant in November (although does now have a new job) and whilst unemployed & looking for other opportunities we found out his profession is on the preferred occupation list; we applied through an agency and because of my qualifications and the age of our boys we have been accepted (I should point out we haven't applied officially yet it is through an intermediate agency who do all the legal bits for you!)

The situation is this:

  1. If I get accepted to do my doctorate next year we wouldn't go until I had finished that anyway because my qualifications aren't recognised in Canada so my 10 years experience in a job I love would be wasted and I would have to requalify out there but with my doctorate I would be a psychologist and able to work out there
  2. We know a lot of people in Canada and our heads tell us (DH & I) that we would be giving our boys better opportunities and a healthier life in Canada
  3. My DH is an only child & his parents have very little family-we are both worried about leaving them as although they are perfectly healthy now as they get older they might/will need our support
  4. We would most likely live in Alberta-how have any ex pats living out there coped with the winters?
  5. Is it "selfish" to my DSs & DH to not want to go to what could well be a better life because I don't want to leave my friends and family who I am very close to (it is all 'I' which is what makes me think it's selfish) and if we don't go will we always wonder "what might have been" or is it selfish to go and leave DH's parents without their GC and alone when they might need us as they get older? My DSs are very close to their GPs on both sides and I feel removing them from the unique relationship children have with their GPs is the wrong thing to do....

GRRRRRR!!!!! It is SO hard Confused

Sorry this is so rambly but am all over the place with this-we certainly don't need to make the decision now but am weighing everthing up and if I don't get accepted onto doctorate we would be looking to apply in the new year as my DH already has some possible job opportunities.

Hope that all makes sense-I s'pose in a nutshell (Thank the Lord I hear you cry!) I am asking you wwyd generally and for those that have emigrated how was it?

Thanks for ploughing through the essay Grin

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MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 07:58

Is there anybody out there? Grin!

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compo · 25/08/2010 08:01

I'd just wait and see if you get accepted into your doctorate

hana · 25/08/2010 08:07

I don't get the whole 'healthier' thing in moving to a place like Canada - they have huge problems with childhood obesity. Most people drive everywhere, the public transport network isn't nearly as developed as it is in the UK. And taxes are staggeringly high. Alberta is bloody cold during the winter tho it is beautiful around the parks

i think really you can't make a decision until you know about your doctorate.

but I would move. not to alberta tho Wink

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 08:07

Thanks Compo - it is true that getting accepted or not will accelarate the decision Smile

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MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 08:10

LOL thanks Hana-where would you go? Taxes are lower in Alberta than BC that is part of our reason wanting to go there; Canadians seem to be more environmentally aware and there is just SO MUCH SPACE! We are crammed into a mid-terrace here with no garden on a main road and we can't afford the sort of home where we live with the space we'd love which we could get in Canada (although it is so effing cold we prob wouldn't get to enjoy said space much Grin!)

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notrightnow · 25/08/2010 08:20

Er, yes... but I didn't post because you might not want to hear what I have to say. All that follows is just my view and experience...

We lived in Canada for two years - relocated with my husband's work. We lived in a suburban town outside Toronto. Although there were some great things, we felt that we would never feel at home there, and I found the distance from my parents and sister extremely difficult. So when the opportunity presented itself, we moved back to the UK.

I'm not sure how things are in Alberta compared with Ontario; certainly Calgary is a boom town, and the philosophy out there is very different (a Canadian friend said that Ontario is much more European in outlook on social care, education etc. whereas Alberta is the wild west!!!). However, don't get sucked in by the 'better opportunities and healthier life' argument. Just like here, education is of variable quality, and it is in my view many ways a very conservative country where individuality is not valued in the way it is in the UK. You need to be prepared to be very mobile to get a job, and Canada is a very big country.

I think Alberta is a bit better than Ontario but we found it a low wage, high tax, high price economy. It is not uncommon for families to have both parents working and one perhaps working two jobs (for those not in professional occupations). You get more for your money in terms of housing and cars, but fuel is the same price as here, engines are larger, and you will drive far further in the course of a normal day than most people would do in the UK. Food is expensive, medical insurance is expensive, fuel costs are high (and houses are larger). Travel is expensive, holidays are short (apart from the long summer school holiday) so don't imagine you will be seeing lots of the country unless you have plenty of cash. Most people holiday close to home, if at all, or do truly insane drives to family (Toronto to Vancouver via Montana anyone?!).

On the plus side, if your children like sports then it is the country for you! There is loads to do, many great local schemes and teams all at pretty reasonable cost. It is very outdoor life and that can be great. It felt to me very safe and secure, although other parents didn't feel the same and there is a lot of discussion about safety vs independence for children as there is here.

The country is spectacular and beautiful and the opportunity for outdoor stuff is amazing. I loved the seasons and the lakes, walked loads - those were really good things and good times.

I felt a constant wrench about taking the children so far away from grandparents and cousins, and I missed my family too. No matter how much you tell yourself that it is only a 7 hour flight, that immense distance of water between you and them is hard to bear (that sounds bonkers I know but I know plenty of other people who have felt the same!).

I realised after about a year away that Canada was never going to suit me: I love London and city life, I go the theatre and art galleries, watch documentaries, read a lot, and I hate having to feel the same as everyone else. We had pitched up living in a place where swimming and beer and a barbeque was the highlight of good weekend, where you could get round the main art gallery in a short afternoon, where the daily newspaper is utterly badly written with only one page of international news, where everyone's goal was to fit in. I found the cultural clash too much; perhaps if I had felt really happy there I would have found the distance from my family less har d to bear.

I'm sure there will be lots of folks along to disagree, and that is fine. This is just my experience. I met lots of other British expats for whom Canada was like the promised land and they were very happy there, and you might be too. I would just urge you leave yourself a way home ...

QS · 25/08/2010 08:21

We moved to my native Norway two years ago. I have friends and family here.

It has not been such a great success as we were hoping.

The kids love it here though. We live at the bottom of a mountain, overlooking the sea, we are 3 minutes walk from the beach, yet 3 minutes walk from the bottom of the skilifts and the piste.

We go fishing, blueberry picking, hiking in the mountains, cycling, cross country skiing and downhill skiing. Winters ARE freezing cold and the summers short and not exactly warm above the arctic circle, but the kids dont seem to mind anymore. We have spent a fortune on merino wool base layer clothing, technical clothing, and down jackets.

The kids are fit and happy, with lots of friends, and a freedom to roam.

My husband has joined the red cross mountain rescue team, he has taken very well to this new lifestyle, and has incorporated a a brisk walk up to our nearest peak for nearly every lunch hour. It takes him 45 minutes round trip (2 hours if I come with him....) He is fitter and healthier than ever before.

And me? I am snowed under with family commitments and issues related to my elderly parents, so I am generally not very happy. Would probably not be happy back in London either.

Whatever you decide, good luck!

notrightnow · 25/08/2010 08:24

"Canadians seem to be more environmentally aware"

Sorry, can't let that go. Do you know about oil extraction in Alberta? Suggest you google... It is just horrific.

On a day to day basis they might chuck their cans in a recycling bin, but in a wider sense (car use, lack of environmental protection legislation, lack of wildlife conservation, agro business etc) they are way behind.

hana · 25/08/2010 08:34

i'm canadian, from halifax but now in the uk. even tho I"ve been here 14 years, now have 3 young children, I'd move back if it was up to me. there are provincial taxes and national taxes, alberta has 0% for their provincial taxes (resource rich out there) but do have nat'l taxes, but you're right, lowest in canada.

BelleDameSansMerci · 25/08/2010 08:39

But hana Halifax is beautiful...

It's interesting to read this. I have always been attracted by the idea of living in Canada (mainly due to Halifax to be honest) but I'm now too old to be in with a chance!

I always said I'd never live abroad before I had DD but now, given the opportunity, I'd definitely go to Australia (not what's under discussion, obviously).

hana · 25/08/2010 08:40

I know I know I know Sad

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 09:44

Oh thank you all SO much for the information and opinions-really appreciate it... notrightnow thank you for your honesty-this is part of my problem the whole "grass is greener" argument-nowhere is perfect and my comments are obviously from people whole have lived in Canada a long time (30 years) and would love us to go and from information I have read in books so apologies for ignorant "environmentally aware" comment Wink

I think part of my problem with the UK (apart from the government of course...whole other discussion there!) is we seem so squashed in the idea of space & the boys having a lovely outdoor life really appeals but so does staying close to everybody we love!

Thank you QS your life sounds lovely but I get that things aren't always what they seem so :(

Yes Belle New Zealand is actually our favourite choice but the sheer time/distance involved makes it impossible for me to consider as I feel I would never settle there knowing how long it was going to take to get home! At least in Canada you can be home in 8 or so hours (I totally get what you are saying about the big expanse of water though Notright-psychologically it really does feel like a long way away).

Thank you all again certainly food for thought! I think, as suggested, I will concentrate on applying for the Doctorate and take it from there, it has really helped just writing all my worries down though so cheers for reading my ramblings Grin

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MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 09:59

Ps Forgot to say Hana yes Halifax is beautiful from what I have seen but wrong part of the Country for us we need Alberta as that is the only place we know people for support (wasn't Anne of Green Gables set around Halifax area? - my favourite show ever loved it when I was a kid!)

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QS · 25/08/2010 10:07

"that is the only place we know people for support "

When you emigrate, dont think you can rely on others for support. Dont go to Alberta, if you think that is the only place you know people who can "support" you.

You need to think about it in terms of YOU, and that YOU are alone in this, and that nobody will help you.

As for sorting out taxes, tax returns, finding out about rules and legislations, the problem with any move is that you know what it is like where you LIVE, and you assume it is the same in some areas and different in others, but you dont know where the differences and where the similarities lie, and that is also the main reason nobody can help you. People in Alberta dont know what life is like in London. So they will not tell you about the differences, as they have no idea. And you wont know where to look. You just have to learn as much as you possibly can about how things work.

Also, regards to your friends/family. Dont expect them to fawn on you once you get there. They may be very keen on seeing you when you are there on holiday, but realistically, they have their everyday life, their friends their family and commitment, and you may find that they are not keen to straight away be your only support network. That is a TREMENDOUS responsibility.

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 10:33

Yes QS you are right of course and that last comment wasn't explained properly-by support I meant practical as it is in Alberta my DH has job opportunities because of the people we know out there I am under no disillusion that we will have a ready made support network, I am fully aware it will be just the 5 of us for a long time which is part of my apprehension-I truly am blessed to have amazing friends & support here and the thought of "starting again" terrifies me.....saying that i don't want to live a life of "what ifs..." letting fear stop me!

I know....am very Confused! I think I need a lie down & a brew Grin

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expatinscotland · 25/08/2010 10:46

I'd move to Alberta like a shot.

scottishmummy · 25/08/2010 10:50

have lived overseas but didnt emigrate.the deal breaker is you completing the PhD and ability to wortk in your field and command a good wage,maintain professional status

it is a wrench to leave family,but with webcams etc it is easier

Jazmyn · 25/08/2010 10:54

I moved over seas away from all my family and friends just over a year ago.... I miss them all like crazy and we're now planning on moving back next year and I'm SO excited!

I'd say it depends how close you are to your family and friends....

expatinscotland · 25/08/2010 10:59

Also, I cross bridges when I come to them. All this is pure speculation just now for you, and it may not even be a permanent move, so why get so upset and stressed about something that may or may not happen in a couple of years?

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 11:02

Thanks expat Wink! Yes, absolutely scottishmummy am beginning to see that more & more...we were considering going even if I didn't get on the course but the thought of moving to a new country and not being able to do the job I love and have worked hard to get the status I have over here, I feel I would be setting us up to fail as I would be deeply unahppy not being able to do what I love. After writing everything down & processing what everybody is saying, i agree that I need to try & get my doctorate and pour all my concentration into that for now and reassess where we are in a couple of years (I am a planner by nature-I like to know where I am & where I am going...unfortunately life doesn't allow me that luxury!)Grin

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scottishmummy · 25/08/2010 11:03

you need to complete the PhD first anyway.cant you go somewhere thta recognised your exisiting qualifications and study a PhD there?have you ooked at BPS website for advice on recognition of qualification

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 11:05

LOL expat-we x posts as I have realised exactly what you have just said in your last post Grin! Think I need to stand still for a bit and take stock.....this really has been most helpful in helping getting my head in order

thank you

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midnightexpress · 25/08/2010 11:06

I've lived abroad but not emigrated, but just wanted to say, echoing QS's comments a little that I think going with a certain mindset is important. I have a friend who emigrated to Australia years ago and I remember her telling me that you have to go assuming that you're not coming back, rather than with an attitude of 'oh well, if it doesn't work out then we can always come home'. That makes a lot of sense to me - I think it's a more forward-looking attitude.

MrsJessRabinovitch · 25/08/2010 11:12

Yes scottishmummy have contacted the equivalents of the BACP (who I am a member of over here) and I would need to requalify in Canada and get lots of experience in my field over there before applying for my PhD. My qualifications are recognised in NZ & Oz but I don't want to be that far away.
Jazmyn am very close to family & friends!

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expatinscotland · 25/08/2010 11:12

'we were considering going even if I didn't get on the course'

How? Do you have a family connection that allows you to emigrate to Canada without being a student or having a job or skills that qualify you for a job/highly skilled migrant? Is your spouse a Canadian, for example?

Canada doesn't have open borders. So I'd work on the doctorate for now and not even think about all this, a doctorate is enough to think about.

I'd be a different story if you actually had at PhD place on a course in Canada or a job offer.

Or you decided, post-doc, to apply for a visa to live and work in Canada (assuming you are not a Canadian national or married to one).

But until then, really, it's hypothetical. Stick to the real and here and now: applying for a doctorate.