Emigrate for a "better life abroad" or stay....

[MrsJessRabinovitch]

...where everybody you love lives?
This is not an immediate decision but it is one of those things that I really don't know what to do and am curious as to what others would do & for those that have emigrated how they got on?

I have 3 DS's and DH & I have been considering emigrating to Canada for a couple of years-he was made redundant in November (although does now have a new job) and whilst unemployed & looking for other opportunities we found out his profession is on the preferred occupation list; we applied through an agency and because of my qualifications and the age of our boys we have been accepted (I should point out we haven't applied officially yet it is through an intermediate agency who do all the legal bits for you!)

The situation is this:

1. If I get accepted to do my doctorate next year we wouldn't go until I had finished that anyway because my qualifications aren't recognised in Canada so my 10 years experience in a job I love would be wasted and I would have to requalify out there but with my doctorate I would be a psychologist and able to work out there
2. We know a lot of people in Canada and our heads tell us (DH & I) that we would be giving our boys better opportunities and a healthier life in Canada
3. My DH is an only child & his parents have very little family-we are both worried about leaving them as although they are perfectly healthy now as they get older they might/will need our support
4. We would most likely live in Alberta-how have any ex pats living out there coped with the winters?
5. Is it "selfish" to my DSs & DH to not want to go to what could well be a better life because I don't want to leave my friends and family who I am very close to (it is all 'I' which is what makes me think it's selfish) and if we don't go will we always wonder "what might have been" or is it selfish to go and leave DH's parents without their GC and alone when they might need us as they get older? My DSs are very close to their GPs on both sides and I feel removing them from the unique relationship children have with their GPs is the wrong thing to do....

GRRRRRR!!!!! It is SO hard

Sorry this is so rambly but am all over the place with this-we certainly don't need to make the decision now but am weighing everthing up and if I don't get accepted onto doctorate we would be looking to apply in the new year as my DH already has some possible job opportunities.

Hope that all makes sense-I s'pose in a nutshell (Thank the Lord I hear you cry!) I am asking you wwyd generally and for those that have emigrated how was it?

Thanks for ploughing through the essay

doesnt OZ or NZ seem better option given recognition of qualifications?tbh once you are out of uk everywhere is far away.pragmatically once not in uk cant spontaneously pop back, and family are distant to you. seems a huge hurdle to have to acquire PhD when you have good solid qualifications and exp that could be recognised and are transferable

I agree with midnight, too.

I moved here knowing this was permanent.

No finding expats straightaway or mooching around decrying the differences.

Now, this is it. My husband and children are Scottish. I remember the first time DD1 started to speak and I told my husband, 'Oh, she sounds foreign!' and he quipped, 'No, she doesn't. You do.'

Hit me like a ton of bricks.

But there's no going back. Because it's like taht old proverb: 'A man can't step into the same river twice. Because it is not the same river, and he is not the same man.'

Going as a student on a PhD course, however, I see as a bit different. It's temporary, mostly, unless you get a work permit afterwards, and for some professions that's hard to do.

Omg,yes the accent thing.the recognition and penny drop that everyone else doesnt sound funny,in fact it is yourself. god that was a deep moment

expat we were applying based on my DH having a profession on the priority occupation list and we were all going over under his visa. Totally totally agree that we would have to see the move as permanent, there is no way I would uproot my DS's from their school, their family and their lives on a whim that we could maybe come back one day; this is why I am struggling with the decision it is so huge !
scottishmummy I wouldn't be doing the PhD just to get into Canada it is an amazing opportunity for me professionally & I love learning so am very excited about the prospect of doing it; actually I felt I was being a bit selfish keeping my whole family here for another 3 or 4 years so I could finish my studying instead of just emigrating and starting again in Canada!
I really am deeply disillusioned with the UK atm-as I said I am very aware of grass is greener and all that but I ssut feel a bit "ground down"!
BTW expat I love that proverb-tis very very true....my dad once said to me (when I was in the middle of my counselling diploma and feeling very unsettled by all the self awareness and wanted to go back to being a bit unaware of the stuff I didn't like!!!) "you've crossed the Rubicon now, there is no going back"-that stays with me about lots of things in my life and maybe thats how I should see moving abroad

many thanks to you all-am not bum kissey but I really do appreciate all the time you have put in to helping me (and after lurking on the NM thread yesterday I don't mean that in a sparkly/ticker type way )!

Hi, my family have emigrated for generations, from Ireland to London, from UK to Canada and now back again for me. There are upsides and downsides but I guess you have to think about what you mean by a better life.

Canadians do have more space - both in their homes and in their towns in addition to parks and wilderness. Other than bigger homes the standard of living seems about the same (when you factor everything in) Politics is a mixed bag, very progressive in some ways but willing to put up with a lot of nonsense (like the oil sands and ridiculous governmental and police powers. Most cities have a great mix of cultures, but suburbia and the countryside can be very monocultural and conservative.

I miss my friends and family in Canada but I'm happy here and I can't imagine going there for a better life. When my parents emigrated in the 60's the standard of living was definitely better there and it was a means of escape from a relatively poor and very class bound country, I don't think this is the case anymore on either side of the equation

That is the other thing to consider: that your children may become Canadians and see themselves that way, and not want to live in the UK.

That happened on one of those TV shows where they get people who've emigrated and then they want to come back to the UK, like decades later.

There was a couple who had been in NZ for about 40-odd years, had 4 grown children, grandchildren, etc.

The lady wanted to go back to the UK. Well, her parents were long-dead. But the children, well, they had no desire to. They were Kiwis, married to Kiwis, with Kiwi children.

So in teh end the lady said much as she wanted to move back to the UK, it would mean no grandchildren or family, because they were all Kiwis who might only come for visits.

I know someone exactly like Expat describes, only she's in Australia.

She hates it and wishes she'd never gone/left earlier but her children and Grandchildren are there and consider themselves Australian.

She makes do with a few weeks over here a year but is utterly miserable at having to live out her days there.

My sons are only 8 and 5, yet I still can see a bit of what Expat is sayin in her last post.

The 8 year old says he wants to move back to London when he has finnished school, he says life in London is great for older kids, and life in Norway is great for young kids. So unless we return to London as a family, he is adamant he will leave us and move back to London. He was 6 when we moved here. The 5 year old has no wish to live in London, he barely remembers it, and he loves life here to the full.

I, on the other hand, miss London terribly, despite being born here!

Oh! I just remembered, holiday entitlement it terrible in Canada 10 days, pretty much across the board, even if you've been working somewhere a long time. Worth considering if you might think of visiting family that would be your only holiday for the year.

And on the opposite side, DD is entitled to an Australian passport (which I must sort out), and I worry she'll go there and never come back. Of course I'd encourage her to do whatever makes her happy, but I'd hate not being able to see her.

Have you thought about applying to do your doctorate somewhere else in the UK with more space but not too far from everyone? Wales or Scotland for example, a sort of compromise? It might be useful to try and identify exactly what you are looking for and if Canada fits that bill or if you are just unhappy where you are and clutching at Canada because you've found out it is an option.

I spent a year in Canada and as I don't really like driving I actually felt more restricted with so few things in walking distance. Even visiting last year, I hated that they talk the environmental message yet the air-con is on everywhere, even when not too hot. Internationally the universities are considered poor (yet expensive), so if your children are close to leaving home age, that is worth considering. It is hard because on holidays in Canada, the outdoors are gorgeous and you can just spend time there - when you stick working into the equation it changes drastically.

Lamber, house prices are just as dear in such places in comparison to Wales and to get the kind of space you'll get in Canada, housewise, is going to set you back. A lot.

And that's not touching on how poor the weather is here compared to Alberta. Sure, Alberta gets lots of snow - my ex h used to ice climb there a lot - but then the next day you get absolutely brilliant blue skies. Summer, hot but really nice heat aside (and biting flies, mosquitos and fucking porcupines at Lake Louise who eat your car you have to put chicken wire round it).

Not rain for weeks on end.

Calgary - OMG $$$$. Like Aspen. We would stay outside Canmore, but in crummy barracks type things for climbers and backcountry skiiers that were like camping but with a roof.

My family emigrated to Canada in 1969, they are all still there-in Ontario. I came back to UK in '83 and have chosen to stay.
I agree with the other posters saying that the so called healthier life style , better standard of living is a myth ime.

You will have a bigger house and garden but that's about it.

'You will have a bigger house and garden but that's about it.'

Sounds like the world to me.

Expat I remember that programme about that poor woman in NZ-if its the one I am thinking of she would drive for miles to get to a supermarket which sold british foods like bisto-I really felt for her that would be a nightmare :(
Lamber (love the name heehee!) I had considered Wales as that is where I am from originally (nowhere like the green green grass of home not even Canada!) but expat is right we have looked at house prices at my hometown in North Wales and although they are slightly cheaper than here the wages are lower (not low but its all relative)-thank you though. Also, the doctorate I am applying for is taught and there is only one university in the whole of the North (i.e. outside of London ) which offer it and that is, handily, my local uni so we are def stuck around here for the next few years if I get on the course. Don't get me wrong there are some beautiful areas where I live (on the borders of cheshire/the peaks & macc) but we just can't afford the sort of house we would like with a garden. The house we live in we have forsaken a garden for the size of house but that was pre-DC and now I have 3 very active little boys I feel hemmed in!
Am getting the feeling the whole better standard of living thing is definitely more an idea than a reality :(

again thank you all

Sorry that should read 2 very active little boys as DS3 is only 3 months old and, nightowl as he may be he is certainly not running all around the house yet....soon but not yet !

I didn't feel very sorry for her. She had a very nice life, a beautiful home and close family and happy marriage. She was very blessed.

She made the choice, years ago. The time to move back was decades before, too. Once you have kids, there's always the chance they won't feel how you do about your native country because it's not theirs.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't, maybe they'll end up in Hong Kong or Alaska or who knows.

But life is about choices that translate into decisions and decisions have consequences.

Even inaction is still action.

Two of my former landlord's brothers moved to Oz in the 1960s. Then, there really was no life for a young, poor Scotsman. There, they became teachers, married Australian women, had families. Some of their children have visited Scotland, but have no desire to live here. They say it's too expensive, class-bound, restrictive and other negative things.

I've never been to Oz, but hey ho, they love it. More power to 'em!

'Am getting the feeling the whole better standard of living thing is definitely more an idea than a reality '

Not at all! It depends on what's important to each individual.

To me, having a large living space and garden is a major thing. I don't cope well with noise from close neighbours, something that doesn't bode well in close housing confines of the UK, love to garden and be outdoors, have 3 children.

I like to drive, too.

But others don't feel the same.

It's about the pros and cons for you and your family, something that's particular to each individual and that you and your DH need to weigh up for yourselves.

Absolutely expat life is about choices and I feel so responsible for possibly making a "wrong" decision by either staying and having regrets or going and hating it....I feel trapped now in a house that is not suitable for us and I don't want to feel trapped in a strange country unable to come home because it has become the DCs home so an absolute yes to "even inaction is action" as inaction would be staying put!
I have regular head/heart debates but this particular one has been going on for a couple of years!

BTW head says go, heart says stay :)

I'm very far from an expert on this but two things do strike me - if it's NZ you really want to move to, IMO that's a slight red flag - the upheaval of emigrating and missing family etc without the compensation of being where you most long to be sounds like a problem?

Also I have to question the agency thing - other people on here will know far better than me and nobody has questioned it yet, but I do know one old school-friend who was working on emigration to Canada with her husband, and an agency was highly positive about her chances, but when the time came for the official application they were nothing like as favourably placed as they had thought. And at this point they had sold their house - they ended up moving elsewhere in the UK. But I'm sure you are more savvy than they were, it's just that it rang a bell in my mind.

Sorry expat x posted-yes thats the thing...a large house & garden are very important to us but more than our friends & family?...I really don't know.

I intend to show DH this thread tonight when the boys are in bed as some great arguments have been put forward, things we hadn't thought of, so think we do need some time to think everything over:)

You can find a large house with garden in the UK too.

When you consider the cost of an international relocation, and annual flight costs, you may find that you can add to your mortgage, or relocate within the uk to a much smaller cost, both financially and emotionally. I would think Scotland a more obvious place than Canada to be honest!

I have been thinking more during the morning about this.

For a start, I think it is good to think about this in advance - I don't think you're worrying yourself unnecessarily MrsJ - it is huge decision and requires a lot of thought.

Several people have said that for emigration to be successful you have to believe it is forever, but I'm not so sure. When we went to Canada, we were very lucky that we were with my husband's employer so it was quite risk free. However, we were going to a three year visa with the offer of a permanent job if we wanted to stay, and we went planning not to come back. We sold our house, closed our bank accounts - we were dead keen to go and I imagined that we would be happy there.

I think (and I suspect QS will agree) that the problem is that you can't make yourself happy if the culture of the place you go to is so at odds with your own. So I think some soul searching about what you are like, and what your family values, is really important.

All that said, and despite my slightly gloomy post earlier, we are so glad we did it and don't regret it for a minute. It opened our eyes to so many things, made us a much stronger unit as a couple and as a family, taught us a lot about who we are.

'You can find a large house with garden in the UK too.'

More than likely, it's going to cost you much much more than it does in some other places, though, QS. More than one is able to afford. Ever. Particularly when you consider that most of the time, if it's within one's price range, it is far out, and petrol is very very dear here and set to get dearer.

Fair point, Jess. Sounds like you and your DH have much to discuss.

I've gone back and forth on this issue too.

Have friends and family in the Pacific Northwest and would love to be around family and have the DCs integrated with cousins their age, and be able to have a larger support network. And of course the mountains, sea and generally having more space is a huge thing.

I've looked into it quite a bit. One of my cousins is a principal at an elementary school and he has taught in germany. His opinion is that the European education system is better as the children start earlier, and are taught more in depth. I don't have anything to back this up other than a quick, 'what do you think...'

And the health care issue is a big concern, but obviously not if going to Canada (nor guns )

Looked at property prices, and sure, you get more bang for your buck, and a bigger space, but case in point: last year had a loft extension at huge expense and major disruption to get another bedroom and bathroom. It was worth it, but last night, both DCs ended up in the same bed, and thought why do we need more space?

In terms of quality of life, it such a personal decision. Would it help to think about the day to day life? A sort of 'day in the life' and how this would be different and compare this to your life now?