I'm just an average gypsy AMA

[GypsyAMA]

I've noticed a lot of hatred towards gypsies on here so I thought I'd answer any questions anyone may have that could help you to understand my culture more. You might still disagree with many aspects, but at least you'll be coming from facts and not stereotypes.

I worry about any child who is denied access to education. There are many ways to educate a child and still keep their opportunities open.

in the modern world, it is entirely possible to get a good education and get a good job or enter university without sitting in a classroom. That does not require a parent who understands all the material. It does require a parent who guides and facilitates academic education and tells the child it is important.

BTW OP, I see that there are still posts from people who seem to be judging your whole community based on the actions of a small group with which you have no links. Like most other posters I know that is wrong and wouldn't dream of thinking that everyone in the GRT community would behave like that.

I'm fascinated about the fact you would refuse to let your children go to school after the age of 12 and im genuinely interested in trying to understand why you think this is in their best interests.

but do you not see that its one thing to be able to CHOOSE what you do and another thing to have that choice made for you. Yes that choice may be limited by eg not being able to afford private school or tutoring and yes many people are happy not to strive for a higher income or higher status life but they CHOOSE it. personally I have no problem at all with people who want to be SAHM, be hijabi, follow the life of an Orthodox Jewish woman and many other lifestyle choices which do not appeal to me. My issue is with other people removing choice from their children.

I think some people on this thread are cheerily ignoring the crucial distinction between being happy with YOUR OWN lot, having made your choices from all those available to you, and in wilfully denying children all the opportunities and chances to choose THEIR OWN lot, by the time they reach an age to be able to do so.

This is why we have compulsory schooling up to 16 (or so) for all children. Once you reach that age, you can freely choose to continue your education; leave and find a job you want to do; get an apprenticeship; start your own small business; spend your days hanging out in the park with a gang; get pregnant; become a chain-smoker/drug-user; make helpful, informative and popular TikTok/YouTube videos showing skills and covering interesting and pleasant topics; make dangerous, irresponsible (and sadly also popular) TikTok/YouTube videos showing you vandalising public amenities, committing anti-social behaviour and terrorising the local community...........

The point is that you are provided with the opportunities and education and a good grounding for you to find your place in society; you may choose to embrace, reject or be nonchalant about it all, but you were not automatically denied those options and opportunities that GAVE you those choices as a child.

I just x-posted with godmum!

My MIL was at school in grammar school era. Her WC family stance was that grammar school was not for the likes of them, so MIL was discouraged from doing well in the 11+. Basically told she didn’t need a career as her lot in life was to get married and have children. She went to the local Secondary Modern, left at 15 with no qualifications (as at that time only grammar school kids did qualifications). Got a job, married at 19, baby at 20. Worked in a department store. Wasn’t allowed on the shop floor once her bump showed! Had to leave once she had a baby.

Life became very tough when FIL left for a younger model. Work choices for her were limited.

We had a DS, but there is no way I would have told a DD that was her lot in life and luckily for many girls different options are available, although as shown by this thread many girls are still being brought up with this attitude.

i don’t want to discuss whether it should or shouldn’t (I think it should but that’s beside the point). But do you disagree that there are some groups in society with reverse snobbery who wouldn’t want to better themselves regardless of education available to them? Aren’t there working class families tearing down their DCs or relatives for willing to become someone “better”? Or middle class parents disapproving of their DCs aspiring to be a tech billionaire and not facilitating any extra STEM tutoring?
im just explaining the thought process by this analogy (imperfect but still).

My profession before I retired was in Occupational Therapy. Its one of the cornerstones of that profession that EVERYONE has the right to make their own choices so far as is humanly possible and of course within other limitations...you don't allow a toddler to choose to jump out in front of a car for instance..... One of the worst things that one human can do to another is remove their agency....their right to choose. Its what we do to criminals as a punishment but even then its rare to do it completely because that is considered inhumane.

People just focused on one aspect of choosing for their children, which is this one. There are many other things that parents choose for their children which shapes their life. People who don’t strive for higher income or status- did they really CHOOSE it or were they conditioned to make this choice by their families and surroundings?
gypsy girls also choose this life because they were brought up to choose it.

the fact that there are other families/cultures who do it doesn't make it any more right or more understandable.

@DodoTired see my post about my MIL, where she was told by her parents that grammar school was not for the likes of them. She had sons and encouraged them to go to further education. I’m hoping she would have been just as encouraging if she had a daughter

I think u have varying degrees of enforced belief, any parent who sends their child to a religious school is choosing their children's religion. Anyone in society home schooling or not schooling is choosing their belief. It doesn't make it any more acceptable , just I think varying degrees of acceptable. I have issues with both. One more than others.

They could take at least some of their rubbish to a tip rather than just leaving a stinking mess for others to clear up?

Any home schooling or not is choosing their life path . Not belief. Yes they can change as adult. But it's more difficult. Not Vaccinating a child. Is another one. My mum didn't do a lot so as adult I did. It was more hassle and I was more at risk. We all make decisions for our children some better than others. I think it's important to acknowledge them.

Amish are an unusual bunch too. Lots of abuse going on there - and no-one to see it/help because of their insular way of life.

@DodoTired
gypsy girls also choose this life because they were brought up to choose it

They have no choice though. Imagine not being allowed to go to school and only being expected to clean, cook and look after children. I'm sure it works out for some but for those where there are MH issues, domestic abuse, sexual abuse or simply where the husband decides to leave there will be no choices left for the woman. Why would anyone bring up a daughter to be so vulnerable. In fact It's wrong. It's outdated and I don't see how it preserves GRT culture. It does the opposite if anything. The fact that there are three times as many single mother households in the GRT community suggests that the GRT cultural idea that family is extremely important is broken and outdated.

My late husband was told by his mother's side of the family that he should go for able seaman merchant navy training and not officer training because "its not for the likes of us" Luckily his father had come from an equally working class but different background (Cook and butler on a scottish estate, real Downton stuff) and so his Mum ignored her family and the rest is history. She was widowed in middle age and met a lovely bloke who was a pub landlord. Her family again said that leaving her council flat to marry a man who ran his own pub was "not for the likes of us" and she should stay in her barmaid job/council flat life. They threatened to cut her off completely if she married him and she said "fine" Crab bucket is not limited to one religion or ethnicity.

I am not sure there really are that many single mothers and the poverty is as bad as reported by statistics. Statistics often do not give complete picture because they reflect only what’s above the ground.
Underground economy is always massively underreported in official statistics, in all countries around the world.
Marriages just may not be reported or lots of people may choose to report them selves as single to claim benefits (not unique to gypsies by the way)

I'm not 'babying' anyone 🙄, but it appears to me that you simply cannot imagine that people who have effectively lived their whole lives outside your average or 'normal' society simply aren't aware of OUR societal 'norms' ?

You aren't aware of the 'norms' in Gypsy or Traveller society, are you ?

You cannot possibly 'know' how much or little other cultures are aware of ffs !

That's one of the reasons this thread has so many posts ! Because WE don't know what is common or accepted 'norms and values' for Gypsies, BECAUSE we were raised outwith that culture !

And to generalize so brazenly by saying ''How could they not know what normal acceptable behaviour is? They know exactly what normal behaviour is.''
Well, that's simply astounding ignorance on your part !

Many Gypsies or Travellers don't live within our 'society', they live within their OWN society, with their OWN set of 'norms' and 'acceptable behaviours' !

They don't all live statically, they don't all go to school, they don't all resolve conflicts with words, they don't all work, they don't all access healthcare, they don't even know what the 'norms' are in other societies e.g Traveller/Gypsy, they don't all have freedom to even be friends with non Gypsies or Travellers ffs !

They are proud of, and stay within THEIR cultures 'norms' and 'expectations'.

So why the hell would you think that they would either know, or care about, OUR societies 'norms' ?

yup. not everywhere but certainly they foster an environment that can facilitate it....same as any closed society.

Here are the GOV.UK FACTS AND FIGURES ON uk GYPSY, ROMA AND TRAVELLER communities it's a recent report and hopefully will continue to be used to work out ways to improve the inequalities and deprivation that too many in the GRT community face.

yup and that is part of the problem.

@DodoTired
I am not sure there really are that many single mothers and the poverty is as bad as reported by statistics. Statistics often do not give complete picture because they reflect only what’s above the ground.

C'mon now. These numbers aren't just pulled out of the air. No one is making up the fact that people in the GRT community die an average of 12 years younger than the general population. No one is making up the fact that the GRT community is hugely overrepresented in prisons and youth offenders .

It's dismissive to brush the statistics away. Anyone can see that depriving children of a basic education is going to cause issue.

Interesting thread but it's a bit depressing tbh

Because if they are going to gain from outside society, e.g.. Healthcare, benefits etc then behaving in the way outside society expects while engaging with those things would be appropriate. I wouldn't chug a beer in the street in a short sleeved top in the Middle East. At home, sure,stick to your own norms, but outside it's not really ok.