I'm just an average gypsy AMA

[GypsyAMA]

I've noticed a lot of hatred towards gypsies on here so I thought I'd answer any questions anyone may have that could help you to understand my culture more. You might still disagree with many aspects, but at least you'll be coming from facts and not stereotypes.

Wow so much judgment. And fyi that's exactly what colonisation is all about: thinking others are inferior because they don't function the way we do. Clearly what you point out can be perceived as misoginy, but being agressive and judgmental on the internet is never going to solve the problem is it. Also your comment on botox etc. shows again the same thing: you have a great opportunity to ask questions about a community you're completely ignorant about (and blatantly ignoring the fact that people from all walks of life have botox) and yet you choose to yap your criticism around in a mumsnet post. No wonder the world is the way it is if we don't try and make an effort to understand and listen to each other.

Also just putting it out there. I do value education. I don’t think going to school is what educates people. I think it’s the societal norm that you have to pass an exam to make you ‘educated’ but there’s lots of things to learn about the world. We teach our kids a lot of life lessons, we give them experiences and skills. We explore the world. So no, I don’t value schooling too much to be honest. In all honesty have you used all information you were given in school in your life? Or did you just remember facts so you could pass an exam before you forgot it forever? It seems the point of an education is to get a good job so we can earn money which a lot of us have the ability to do.

What do those “many many people with little and no education who go on to be successful” usually do for a living? Are you talking about people living in the UK?

I’m genuinely curious, because one often hears it (including here on MN) that even entry level jobs require basic qualifications.

And no, I still don’t think it’s the education system’s job to teach how to organise the house and do life admin. That’s what parents should do.

But they can teach their kids all that in addition to formal education, no need to take them out of school at 12 in order to show them how to cook.

Sorry, but I don’t agree with the approach of denying your children formal secondary education because “there are other ways to learn”. That just sounds too vague and too much like “went to school of hard knocks and university of life”.

@Calliopespa
What I find a bit alarming in this thread is all the prejudice and closed-mindedness about the freedoms of others to pursue different lifestyles in a context where those same posters are condescendingly lauding the benefits of “education” and freedom of the individual ( ie women should be allowed to live as they choose). It seems however what is really meant is a ratification ( and replication) of their own values and an education up to and including, say, GCSE maths - or even A levels or a first degree; but leaving them unable to comprehend learning about the world in a way that might tilt their mind open more broadly still

It's not condescending to think it wrong to prevent a child from getting a basic education. It's a fundamental human right. It's part of our job as parents to help prepare our children for adulthood.

You can argue the boys are being taught a trade but what are the girls being taught? How to clean and clean?

Removing the children from school for cultural reasons is not going to help their community increase its shockingly bad 'outcomes. Namely
health/high infant mortality/ mental health/ % single mother households/ high % domestic abuse/ high % alcoholism/ high % young offender/ high % prison/ extremely low economic attainment and poor housing.

These are actual hard facts. If I was a mother in the GRT community I would want to give my children the best chance possible in life and I don't think pulling them out of school at 12 or whenever is doing that.

I really like your reply and the one you quoted. It seems some people are not in the business of learning unless they're going to get a certificate and if it's a topic they agree on. I hope they never learn about history or religion or they're in for a shock!

i should really ask them to be accountable for every crime committed by their race and see what they have to say.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/25/gypsy-roma-travellers-suffer-persistent-discrimination-uk

https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/news/national-survey-exposes-racism-and-discrimination-faced-by-gypsy-roma-and-traveller-people/

To those spouting racist nonsense on this thread, while coming across all superior and apparently ‘educated’- have a read of the above articles, recognise your racism for what it is and maybe try and change your narrow, bigoted mindset.

Girls who are taken out of education are going to fare much worse than their male counterparts, if the males are then taught a trade but the girls are just meant to keep a house tidy and look after their younger siblings. Their choices are so limited.

Special consideration is given to children of gypsies/travellers in school, but that was because the majority of them were moving on after a few weeks/months. If you are settled, not sure why that consideration still applies.

For those saying it is wrong for us to criticise other cultures, should we think it is fine for the Taliban to prevent girls having an education. Is that any different to gypsies stopping their girls from having an education?

Home education is a completely feasible choice and you don't need to be a qualified teacher. Online resources are available. Professional teachers are highly likely to have been to bog standard comps themselves and then to ex polys: it's not like they are some kind of intellectual elite that no intelligent autodidact could possibly keep up with. (I'm a teacher and a former home educator.)

Fully agree with you. I also think it’s a strange logic to say “we need to stop x/y/z” (hate/ racism/ prejudice), i.e. we need to change and do better, but all the other cultures can stay exactly as they are and mustn’t be confronted about anything.
I’m all up for overcoming racism, hate and prejudice, but I don’t think that means we can never call out questionable practices in other cultures.

@HollyJollyHolidays that survey showed a high proportion of gypsies/travellers not having qualifications, but that isn’t discrimination that’s because they take their children out of school. The high proportion of men being in precarious occupations will partly be because they haven’t got any qualifications

I also agree.

About 10 years ago I worked night shifts in an office on a commercial estate. 2 weeks before my last day, many caravans moved in to the field that separated the estate from the railway line.

It was chaos; rubbish, anti social behaviour, muggings. Things got so bad that emergency messaging went round at work to insist people dead-locked their cars after one person from the site tried to car jack a young woman. When my last day came around, management insisted on a colleague driving me the 5 minute walk to the station (this was a call centre so they're not exactly named for caring about staff welfare!)

This was only 2 years after the market town I'd moved to made headline news after extreme modern slavery was uncovered on one of these sites.

OP thank you for this AMA. But I think some people are trying to make the point that whilst there may be a proportion of these communities who behave civilly, there are a large proportion of people who have only negative experiences of these communities and it's not really fair to argue they don't have very, very good reasons to be wary.

OP said the men learn the trades of their fathers. How are those not “half decent “ jobs?

You miss my point, which is that going to a shitty comp does not equal "education". The fact that society chooses to pretend it does is irrelevant. Privately and/or grammar school educated people are overrepresented in all the traditional professions. The fact that there shouldn't be shitty comps is irrelevant too: we need to engage with the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be. Contextual offers don't undo the harm of years of bullying and intellectual stagnation. Why on earth would being home educated prevent access to the professions? You can still sit exams as a private candidate.

@HollyJollyHolidays

I don't think anyone on the thread has denied that the GRT community face racism. It's wrong that the whole community is blighted by the actions of a few.

I can't understand the reasoning for preventing children from getting a basic education . Especially the girls. Im hoping either the OP or some of the other posters from the GRT community can enlighten me. I'm listening!

Surely you can see the reason why so many posters that it's a bad idea? I don't see what the 'cultural' element of it is. Presumably in the past the females would get married early and have children but I assume that's changed. What do you think?

What race are you? There will be nothing done by a gypsy, good or bad, that won’t have been done by any other race. Do you not see the tone in the posts that judge a whole race of people by the actions of one or a few? It’s racism, can’t you see that?
Discussing cultural norms is fine, assuming yours are superior, isn’t. Thinking travellers and gypsies are the same ethnicity is pure ignorance. Asking the op to explain some litter and shite in their local park is fucking ridiculous. There’s been anti-litter campaigns in UK as far back as I can remember and I’ve never been asked to explain it as if it’s my culture so why ask the op?

It’s like the last ‘acceptable’ form of racism in the UK, only it’s not acceptable at all.

@Brexile bit hard to home school someone to A-level standard if you haven’t been educated yourself and you wouldn’t be allowed to join home ed groups as you would be exposed to some of the things that is stopping children being allowed to attend school in the first place

I’ve seen families dressed like that at fun fairs, etc, and always just thought they’re regular people, just with a different fashion sense.
I’m sure I’ll forget they’re likely to be gypsies by the next time I see similar but their ethnicity has no relevance to me so it’s alright, I guess.

How do you measure success? by a job title?

Charlie Mullins is a good example of someone who didn't complete school, he's worth 70 million

A quick google will tell you there are many famous business people who haven't completed school.

I stand by my views education is not the be all and end all nor is it for everyone.

I work in a hospital. Gypsy families are often very challenging on our wards due to a complete disregard of hospital policies re: visiting hours, numbers of visitors, bringing children in etc. Can you shed any light on this?

Go and pick on someone who’s been rude and disrespectful towards OP, I have asked genuine questions on things I’m interested in and she has been kind enough to reply.

Of course it isn't hard. You have access to materials online, course books etc. What do you think happens in, er, "crumbling schools" where there is no teacher, or the teacher is useless?

When I was home educating, there were groups which contained religious separatists (Muslim and Catholic). These groups were activity focused and these families were there for the activities, but didn't socialise. Presumably there are also social groups which cater exclusively for those of a certain religion or culture. There's no reason why gypsies couldn't do similar and maybe they already have. The OP says that her family are on social media, and organizing meetups with like-minded people has never been easier.

I can see the value of knowledge and learning, of course, and I believe in equality of opportunity, but this thread isn’t about me. I don’t think the current UK education system is fit for purpose- the ignorance on this thread demonstrates this.

What’s the point of learning how to calculate the area of a circle when we can’t even figure out that judging a whole race of people from the actions of a few is absurd?

We have another one! 🙄

We care very much for our family and we want to sit with them whilst they are there. When someone is dying at home someone is always sitting with them every hour and when they die we keep them home until the funeral and again someone is with them every minute. It’s just our way. I find it very sad when I go to a hospital and see people without family there.

You've said exactly what I wanted to say, thank you