I'm a Jewish Israeli, AMA

[israelilefty]

Jewish Israeli here. I grew up in a different country but have lived and worked most of my adult life here, living a fairly normal everyday life in northern Israel. When I'm not working, I enjoy cooking and hiking, I'm religiously observant (but also feminist), I'm on the left of the political spectrum, and have everyday contact with people from quite a range of different perspectives - Israeli society is incredibly diverse.

I guess I see us portrayed in a kind of monolithic way in the English-language media, so I'm taking a deep breath and posting here...

Feel free to AMA, just remember you're asking a real person, not a government or military spokesman :) I'll try to answer from my personal standpoint. as long as it's asked in good faith.

First of all, your comment is interesting because I think that it illustrates a big difference in perspective on Netanyahu's policy between overseas and locally in Israel. Overseas, most people joined the story on 7 Oct and saw Netanyahu just using a very harsh "stick" against Hamas. In Israel the criticism is exactly the opposite: Netanyahu spent the last 14 years offering every possible "carrot" to Hamas, strengthening them, allowing them to get huge amounts of money from Qatar, giving work permits, in order to play them off against the Palestinian Authority, and because he believed they would restrain their terror ambitions if they had economic incentives. In retrospect, that was not a successful policy (understatement).

I don't think there are any carrots to be offered to Hamas at this stage. I understand that Netanyahu's strengthening Hamas was part of a power play and not some kind of partnership with them, but by now they have made clear what they are about, which is a disaster for Israel and even more so for Gazan civilians, who have suffered both Hamas's rule and Israel's response. Hamas military leaders have made clear that they will cross every red line, up to and including shooting their own civilians who have the temerity to claim that aid should go to the civilians it is intended for and not be diverted directly to their militants. The war needs to end with those leaders no longer in charge, with the hostages returned. NB regime change in Israel to a government that will work towards a secure future for Israelis and Palestinians and not gamble with fire is also vital, but that is pretty much guaranteed to happen on its own...

I'm not a military leader but I doubt even the military leaders of Hamas can be defeated militarily and I hope there is a way to achieve a transition of power outside military means. I think the kind of ceasefire deal being brokered by Egypt right now, which sees a temporary ceasefire and step-by-step return of the hostages leading to a permanent ceasefire and transfer of power to a transitional Palestinian government tasked with rebuilding Gaza and leading to new Palestinian elections - is an example of the approach I would endorse. It takes seriously the needs of both sides, it puts Palestinians in control of their own future, and it is brokered by Arab partners and not just imposed by the West. This deal would be tough for both sides but is the kind of realistic, future-thinking approach which I found lacking in "naive" ceasefire calls which suggested the situation could be resolved without the underlying situation changing. Meanwhile while the negotiations are going on there should urgently be a temporary ceasefire for aid to be delivered and old/sick hostages to be released.

Yes to all of the above.

@israelilefty such a good post about the Egyptian initiative being brokered.

I know there are some really interesting things being discussed here and I don't want to derail that, I'm learning a lot.

But, you knew there would be a but didn't you?

You mentioned food, what is your favorite and do you have a recipe?

@israelilefty I listened to the Unholy podcast at your suggestion and learned a lot, thanks for that. Ilana Dayan sounds so articulate!

@israelilefty I was regally talking about how the Israeli people were treating the Palestinians within the areas they are restricted to. So those in Gaza and the West Bank for example. How does your idea “I believe in carrots, not sticks, and that change has to be made in partnership with communities and sensitivity to their values” sit with the the appalling experience those people are being put through? Because they are not “Hamas” are they? Just as you are not (I assume) automatically pro-Netanyahu?

I've been following this thread from the start and have to thank you @israelilefty for such a well considered, balanced and educated AMA.

I am a South African Liberal jew living outside both SA and Israel and often say people don't understand the complexities of a situation unless they're actually living it.

Your voice has educated me with points I hadn't considered and I wish more people could converse with someone like you as opposed to thinking all Israelis/ Jews are bad for the genocide we're causing.

I was brought up with the saying from your lips to g-d's ears... from your lips I hope Mumsnet and the world hears xx

I honestly don't really have a favourite food! Though as I mentioned already my favourite food is a good Israeli breakfast in a nice cafe, which should include breads, cheeses, an omelette, salad, and a bunch of dips and spreads as well as a good coffee and some fresh juice.

But if I'm not going out, one brunch/lunch food that I really like to make and which is typical in Israel and other local cuisines is shakshuka. It's eggs poached in a spicy tomato sauce. This is how I make it:

Chop and fry half an onion and some garlic till clear. Add some chopped chilli or chilli flakes, depending on how spicy you like it and fry a bit. Season, you can also add paprika if you like. Once the onion and vegetables are cooked, add a can of chopped tomatoes (or if you have fresh tomatoes you can blitz them with a blender then add). Cook for a while until you have a nice tomato sauce like you might make for pasta. Add a bit of water if it's getting very thick as you will be cooking it some more. Now break however many eggs you want, make small spaces in the sauce and pour each egg into a space without breaking the yolk. Cover the pan and cook until the white of the eggs is cooked but the yellow is still a bit runny. Serve in a bowl with some bread to mop it up.

Options of things to add:

When you fry the onion you can also add some chopped aubergine or pepper.

After adding the eggs I sometimes add chunks of white cheese in indentations of the sauce (in Israel we have some white cheeses that are like feta but less salty - "Bulgarian cheese" or "tsfatit", I've also used fresh mozzarella) - so the cheese melts but doesn't get mixed in.

I sometimes put spinach leaves on top after adding the eggs, and I often serve with parsley or coriander leaves (cilantro) on top if I have them.

Overall it's a yummy warm dish with a spicy kick, and I find it good for using up bits and pieces from the fridge if I have any of the above vegetables/herbs/cheese.

@TomeTome Throughout this thread the OP has provided many balanced, nuanced and empathetic perspectives on the conflict and the relationship between Israel, Palestinians and Gaza. I don’t think there’s much to be gained from taking one of her comments out of context and it’s already pretty clear she agrees with you that civilians in Gaza are treated pretty appallingly.

OP, I had a question that follows on from one of your earlier comments, that a two state solution will only be achievable if it’s approached through frameworks other than just a liberal western one. Could you expand on what this might mean, in theory and in practice. Are there Palestinian (or Muslim, or Arab, or other) frameworks or cultural aspects etc that you think should be considered? Are they being overlooked at the moment?

I assume "regally" was a misprint ;)

I have read through your question a few times. I feel that here (and in some of your other questions) there's something that you're trying to get me to say, but I'm not sure that I'm finding the way to answer you. As I've stated many times here, I'm a leftist. I don't support the present government's (or its various predecessors') policy and actions in the West Bank and Gaza, and in every single election, this is the top issue on which I vote, and it's something about which I've taken part in many demonstrations.

But your question feels a bit like you're asking a Bernie Sanders voter how their beliefs fit with the worst parts of Trump's presidency. Obviously what's going on now doesn't have anything to do with partnership and sensitivity.

I've refrained from posting much here about what I feel about what is going on, because trying to formulate it in words is unbearable, and because this is a chat forum with strangers, not the darkest conversations I hold with close friends. Living the last few months of news has been like watching a slow motion train wreck in which every possible nightmare comes true, every rug is pulled out from under your feet, and literally nothing you can do will make a difference to the nightmares that are playing out (and then replay in your mind as you sleep). It seems too facile to point out that thousands of Gazan civilians do not deserve to have lost their lives, just as it seems facile to point out Hamas's atrocities, or to point out that every single one of us between the river and the sea will have to live with these things for the rest of our lives, not only as victims but as people in whose name they were done. It seems facile even to address whether I believe in carrots or sticks, because it makes absolutely no difference to what's playing out now.

The best I can do is to retain the belief that there will be a day after, there will be new political horizons, and new partnerships between Palestinians and Israelis, and in the meantime to act where I can in ways that retain and affirm humanity when it is sorely lacking. Today, for me that looked like cooking dinner for a local bereaved family, working on a joint project with a Palestinian-Israeli colleague, and writing posts on here that I hope help some people to understand just some of the complex human life beyond the news. I wish there was more I could do.

OP Thank you so much for putting words to some of the overwhelming and confusing feelings I’ve been experiencing over the last couple of months. Sincerely thank you.

@israelilefty Yes I’m sorry about the typos, I’m rubbish at spotting them. I categorically am not trying to make you say anything and am interested in what you do say. I’m interested in what you think would work particularly if it isn’t a “stick” approach, because like many what’s happening in Gaza makes me feel terribly upset and horrified. You sound like a thoughtful person and it’s your country and you are there.
The two state solution isn’t something I think is great but I’m reading your reasons it might work with interest. In the meantime how do we stop what is happening now? Do Israelis really think this is how to stop Hamas? It’s seems crazy.

That's a great question. Not sure I have a succinct answer, and at this time of the evening I'm running out of steam a bit :) I'm not sure I meant that a two-state solution is only achievable through other perspectives but I think that it needs not simply to be imposed from outside. I think that a lot of commentary in general from the West on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict assumes that people around here think like Western liberals. That's just not the case. By far the majority have their roots in conservative Middle Eastern societies, which express things like leadership and morality in a different way to Western societies.

As I've said before, I believe the only realistic way to stop what's happening now is by a negotiated ceasefire which includes the release of the hostages (in return for release of whatever number of Palestinian prisoners is agreed) and includes steps for the rebuilding of Gaza and a convincing assurance for both Palestinians and Israelis that we are not just going to return to Oct 6 and start again. Anything less than this will not create a sustainable ceasefire.

Negotiating and accepting such a ceasefire is up to the Israeli and Hamas leadership. International pressure from allies each side cares about (leadership in US, Qatar etc) might make a difference. But ultimately there is very little input individuals can have. This is geopolitics writ large, especially given the Iranian shadows in the background. It's hard enough even to try to understand let alone to figure out how to influence it.

Do Israelis really think the war is how to stop Hamas? Yes, most of them, because there don't seem to be many other options, and the Oct 7 attacks completely eroded confidence in the kind of options that require trust. But not without debate. There is much pressure to compromise and bring the hostages home, there are debates within the military and political establishment about whether/how to use less force, and leftists raise the issue of the toll on Gazan civilians.

Sorry, forgot to tag you @TheLonelyStarbucksLovers in the reply two messages above this one.

@israelilefty and @TomeTome
Interesting Q&A between you both. Best when others don’t leap in.

@israelilefty If all Israelis thought like you and were in government I would be very supportive of Israel.

I do struggle with the mindboggling numbers of child deaths and the massive acute homelessness atm. There will be so much trauma from that. I also struggle greatly with the support from the Israeli government towards the extremist settlers. These are two aspects of Israel I find it very difficult to get past.

I won’t argue with you any further as I’ve made my points above. I’ll keep watching your thread though. I hope whoever you are (haven’t RTFT) you are in a position to influence people in Israel. Thanks for your thread. Most moderate and informed “pro Israel” voice I’ve seen on MN.

@israelilefty Thank you, I'm going to have a go at that.

As the saying goes: if you have a two like minded Israelis they form a political party.
With such a balanced and more sensible views then majority of Israeli politicians are you a member of Knesset?

@israelilefty I would just like to say thank you for such an interesting thread and for your detailed and insightful responses.

Could I ask a couple of non-political questions to start with?

1. Are there aspects of day-to-day life that you find very different from growing up in your country of birth or that took a while to get used to?
2. Do you have any favourite places to go hiking? Back in 2010 I walked a popular trail where you had to swim through water at one point (I think it was in the Yehudiya Nature Reserve) - it was a beautiful place but spoiled somewhat by the huge amount of litter along the trail.

I want to reply to your comment 'if all Israelis thought like you and were in government I would be very supportive of Israel'

As an Israeli, I find this language difficult. It feels like a litmus test, sorting out the "good" Israelis from the "bad" Israelis, and it also feels like you (and others who use this language) use a framework of judgment about Israel that is not generally applied to other countries, judging the entire country rather than its policies. For example, I don't say 'I would be very supportive of the UK if all Brits were left wingers' or 'I would be very supportive of Syria if Assad would step down' or 'I would be very supportive of the USA if everyone was a Democrat' - because I don't support or not support countries - they just exist and the question isn't about whether I support their existence. I criticise leaders and policy not the actual country, because I know that the country includes a hugely diverse range of citizens and opinions. Large sectors of Israeli society struggle with the government and its policies at least as much as you do. It seems ancient history now but half a million of us were out on the street against the government every week earlier this year.

I think we need to lose the language (on both sides) of 'supporting Israel' or 'supporting Palestine'. It's not a football match, and it's not a zero sum game. What we should all want is for both Israelis AND Palestinians to be safe and flourish, both now and in the long run.

Nope. But there are plenty of Israeli politicians who share my views. You just don't hear from them because they're not in the coalition, and their views are moderate so don't make good soundbites for the media, so nobody translates them into English. Check out the Avodah (Labour), Meretz and Hadash parties and some of the members of Yesh Atid.

Probably the thing that took me the longest to get used to was communication styles. I had very good Hebrew when I moved here, but it was good for writing college assignments, not small talk or participating in work meetings. It took me about a decade to be able to confidently crack a joke with colleagues :)

I really like hiking in the desert (southern Dead Sea area or Eilat mountains). Sorry to hear you encountered a lot of litter - that's actually not common on Israeli hiking trails.

If all Israelis thought like you and were in government I would be very supportive of Israel.

I find this really patronising. In a backhanded way, the PP is saying, "You are the exception that proves the rule and confirms my prejudices". It functions as indirect and hidden anti-semitism because what it is actually saying is that in her estimation most Israelis don't think like the OP and therefore her anti-Israel stance is justified. The PP cannot fault the OP so she writes her off as an exception and maintains her prejudice against the population as a whole.

Thank you for your interesting thread, I’ve learnt a lot. I have a few uncomfortable questions which you obviously don’t have to answer, I fully respect that.

1. it is well known that Israel has some of the most secure borders in the world, and the most high tech intelligence systems. Were you and your friends and families angry that it took so long for help to arrive, when it did it was sadly lacking and the forces fired on their own people ? Is anyone asking for answers to this or is it all too raw yet ?
2. is the Houthis control of the Red Sea impacting daily life, ie. Food, fuel etc. ?
3. do you think there is a good chance that this will escalate widely with Iran getting involved, Hezbollah, the Houthis, do you think Netanyahu is planning and prepared for a world war ?
4. We’ve seen some sickening video’s of the IDF behaviour in Gaza, they are too awful to go into here, are the armed forces leaders dealing with these acts with the individuals concerned or are they closing their eyes to them ?

sorry for the long post and thank you again for your replies.

@YetAnotherSpartacus Exactly how I read it too - 'most of you are baddies but you're not'