I'm a Jewish Israeli, AMA

[israelilefty]

Jewish Israeli here. I grew up in a different country but have lived and worked most of my adult life here, living a fairly normal everyday life in northern Israel. When I'm not working, I enjoy cooking and hiking, I'm religiously observant (but also feminist), I'm on the left of the political spectrum, and have everyday contact with people from quite a range of different perspectives - Israeli society is incredibly diverse.

I guess I see us portrayed in a kind of monolithic way in the English-language media, so I'm taking a deep breath and posting here...

Feel free to AMA, just remember you're asking a real person, not a government or military spokesman :) I'll try to answer from my personal standpoint. as long as it's asked in good faith.

As an outsider reading your post @israelilefty it honestly sounds like what you fear is the Palestinian people being able to do to Israelis what has been done to them? I mean they do live with the fear of being bombed in their homes etc and their fears are playing out.

It also reads like you have no part in the military action on civilians that is happening now, but it is your country that is starving and bombing these people. It is a choice to take this action and not a natural consequence. We in the uk behaved in a similar way in Iraq. We bombed, removed a government, and then occupied that country on the back of them having a super gun that might be used against us. It didn’t exist and we have to live with how we behaved just as Isreal will have to live with their behaviour.

I just can’t see how Palestinians are evil for building tunnels but Israelis are good with their safe rooms. Or how Israelis can have national service and a reportable large arsenal of modern weapons but Arabs are dangerous because they have what appear to be rather modest short range missiles and little if any recognisable army.
It’s Christmas Eve here and the day will be spent by many cooking a preparing for tomorrow and gathering together with friends and family. I think we all can and must do better. Better for me starts with equality and justice for all and never includes violence, killing and maiming and especially not of women and children.

it sounds like what you fear is the Palestinian people being able to do to Israelis what has been done to them?
Do you actually know what happened on 7 October? I am not going to repeat the details here, but it doesn't take much to find out if you have internet access. As one of the Nova festival survivors said, as they were being hunted down, the thought of being hit by a rocket landing was almost welcome compared with the horrific fate of anyone falling into the hands of the Hamas/Gazan attackers.

it is your country that is starving and bombing these people. It is a choice to take this action and not a natural consequence
I'm pretty sure Israel would give anything not to have "chosen" this horrible situation. I wonder how you'd feel if, say, France had spend the past couple of decades constantly aiming rockets at the UK so that we had to build anti-missile defence systems, and then invaded to torture, rape, mutilate and burn alive every civilian they could get their hands on? Laughing all the way, as though it was the best fun they'd ever had?

We in the uk behaved in a similar way in Iraq. We bombed, removed a government, and then occupied that country on the back of them having a super gun that might be used against us. It didn’t exist
Hamas has already used its "super gun" against Israel, and promises to do so again and again. It's amazing what you can achieve with pure hatred and delight in sadism. And amazing what an arsenal of weapons you can accumulate when that's how you choose to invest all the money that could have gone into building a better infrastructure.

I just can’t see how Palestinians are evil for building tunnels but Israelis are good with their safe rooms.
The safe rooms are to protect families from terrorist attacks. The tunnels are to protect terrorists and their arsenal of weapons, so that they can continue attacking. You really can't see the difference...? Well, oh dear🤦‍♀️

I think we all can and must do better. Better for me starts with equality and justice for all and never includes violence, killing and maiming and especially not of women and children.
Well, I think we can all agree on this. How do you plan to realise this Utopian dream?

@Pizdietz I don’t think what is happening in Gaza is a reasonable response and I think that’s a view held by most of the world. I don’t think it’s a utopian dream to aspire to a world where bombing and starving a trapped population isn’t an option. Peace is not a passive situation. It requires work and sacrifice and hope. I think Israel and Israelis know this is wrong. I hope they are brave enough to choose another way.

Not sure if you have recently joined this thread, @TomeTome ?

OP wrote earlier:

The reason that I (and almost all of the Israeli left) are not out there protesting for a ceasefire right now is not because we don't care about Palestinian civilians or recognise the terrible toll they are facing, but because we hold a different perspective to you.

Simply put, Hamas is a terrorist entity sitting right on our borders, who has the means and infrastructure to plan and carry out the Oct 7 attacks, and has specifically stated that they intend to do so again and again. Israeli society will recover from Oct 7, but it won't recover from more and more attacks of this kind, not only because of the human loss, but because of the immense terror and trauma that accompanied the atrocities. We cannot, as we have in previous rounds of conflict with Hamas, just draw a line and expect this not to happen again. In the past, I don't think we took Hamas's rhetoric seriously. Nobody thought that they were either capable or really intended to carry out this kind of attack. We have sadly learned that we were mistaken.

I think that this mistakenness is felt particularly on the Israeli left. The sheer sadism and psychological warfare really hurt our basic beliefs. It was shattering for me to read, for example, that a woman from one of the Israeli kibbutzim had put together a joint photography exhibition this year with a Gazan photographer that she met on the internet, which documented their daily lives. The exhibition was heralded as a peace project bringing together people from both sides, and the two photographers developed a friendship and chatted on social media. On the morning of October 7th he called her asking about the positions of soldiers in her kibbutz, which was under attack, and she suddenly realised that the whole project had been a scam - he had been gathering information for Hamas, as had Gazan workers who worked in the kibbutzim alongside Israelis, then were recognised by the same Israelis as part of the attack force on Oct 7. Now I'm not naive and I'm aware that interactions between Israelis and Gazans don't happen on a level playing field. But the many stories like this sadly make it impossible for us to return to the reality of October 6th.

What this means is that you and I face different stakes and reasoning in calling for a ceasefire. For most of the global left, calling for an unconditional ceasefire is a convenient and acceptable moral position to take. For me, calling for an unconditional ceasefire without removing Hamas's military capability is to abandon my own friends, who live in a kibbutz about 1km from the Gaza border, and to say that they can't sleep safely in their own home, within the internationally agreed 1948 borders of Israel. They were lucky this time - the terrorists didn't make it into their kibbutz on Oct 7. But I literally saw their house on a Hamas map that had been found on terrorists who had been intending to go there (a photo of the map was published in a US newspaper).

If there was a ceasefire deal on the table which ensured the safety of Israelis from future attacks by Hamas, I believe Israelis would jump on it. The military has made statements to that effect. Nobody wants to endanger Gazan civilians and our own soldiers if there is another way to reach the goal of removing Hamas's military capability. But unfortunately such a deal is not on the table.

There are many other things Israeli leftists have been calling for during the war: for the war to be fought in ways that is less destructive to Gazan civilians, and Jewish and Arab Israelis have been working on many ways to continue to cooperate and avoid the conflict spilling over into Israel. But most of us can't wholeheartedly call for a ceasefire right now that would put us back at October 6th.

Do you understand this position, or do you feel no sympathy or compassion for the situation that Hamas has placed Israel in? It's interesting that you are coming up with the bright idea of "equality and justice for all" as though no one else has considered it.

I think Israel and Israelis know this is wrong. I hope they are brave enough to choose another way.
They would certainly have to be "brave" to sit back and let Hamas get on with realising their goal of destroying Israel. Would you and your family like to go and live there? I'd imagine keeping yourself and your loved ones safe is a fairly important priority in your life, and I wonder why you don't feel that Israelis should have this basic human right.

Thank you @Pizdietz i agree on all counts.

I am going to go out on a limb @TomeTome and say people may be outraged by the optics of war but the removal of Hamas is a shared objective of lots of countries and people. They understand what it means to have them remain in power.

Israel facing its worst nightmare because it wasn't just terrorists was it? It was normal everyday civilians burning and raping. Horrifying isn't it? The depths a human is able to go.

@Pizdietz it's bad form to answer a question on an ama that was asked to the OP.
I would have been interested in hearing her response

Yes, I agree, sorry OP for butting in.

I just hate bullying.

Honestly, I’m more interested in OPs AMA than a back and forth. Phrases like “the optics of war” are jarring, because the optics are thousands of tiny dead bodies and a degree of human misery that it hurts to see. Far from thinking I invented peace or equality, I think all of us know what is right, the difficulty is getting to a place where we can live that.

Nobody is bullying anyone else. Some adults are asking and answering questions and exchanging thoughts.

Maybe “bullying” is the wrong word, I’m at a loss to know what to call it.

When OP has gone to the trouble of explaining, repeatedly and clearly, how complex the situation is, and how terrifying the clear existential threat to Israelis both individually and collectively, then I don’t know what to make of someone basically saying “Yeah, well, fuck all that” and suggesting that Israelis simply lack the intelligence, compassion and respect to value some pretty obvious shared goals for humanity.

What does it take to keep on with these veiled attacks? A lack of... I don't know... intelligence? compassion? respect?

@israelilefty I wrote out a response thanking you for your previous post to my questions and I also had a few more but I clicked on something else by mistake and the whole post got deleted so I will have a go again later.

Also one question before i forget I was fascinated by the horns/sirens before Shabbat and also what you mentioned happens in your neighbourhood. Is there anything similar that happens as a call to prayer on special religious days or even on a normal day for prayer?

@Pizdietz absolutely no one has said anything like “Yeah, well, fuck all that” or suggested that Israelis simply lack the intelligence, compassion and respect to value some pretty obvious shared goals for humanity. I’m neither stupid nor lacking in compassion but if that’s what you take away from this thread I think it probably says more about you than me. Let’s hope 2024 bring peace and an honest attempt to understand each other recognise where we went wrong and do better.

@TomeTome @Pizdietz @stomachameleon let's keep this an AMA so that the thread doesn't get lost and people feel comfortable to join and ask questions. Please go to DMs if you really want to shout at each other.

I'll try to get to the actual questions later, 24 dec is a normal work day here and unreasonably enough my employer doesn't give me time off for AMAs ;)

Sorry OP, my fault 🤦‍♀️

Thank you for your great posts @israelilefty

How do you find having sunday as a normal workday? I would really struggle with that!

(athough the nature of my job means I actually do end up working on sundays)

@israelilefty sorry.

I'm not sure that we're going to be able to get much further in this conversation on a forum like this because we are trying to have a difficult conversation that would better be had in real life face to face rather than in an Internet forum. I did want to thank you though for continuing the conversation.

Let's start from what we agree on: the situation right now is terrible, and things need to be much better. Honestly, I am just waiting for the day when the news start to be better each day rather than just getting worse and worse. I agree that Israel can do better to avoid civilian casualties though Hamas also bears responsibility because of the way it has chosen to fight shows staggering disregard for its own citizens (see below).

I would like to address your comment that I fear "the Palestinian people being able to do to Israelis what has been done to them". I want to turn this round. I WANT for Palestinians what I have: a secure, prosperous state where they can be Palestinian without being occupied. This conflict is not zero-sum, and it's not some kind of "last man standing turns off the lights". Both of our peoples can prosper.

However, I find it problematic that your reading of the current situation entirely avoids allocating any responsibility to Hamas - you make it sound like Israel randomly decided one day to bomb Gaza. Now, I am the first person to be cynical about Netanyahu's policies, and here in Israel we see him as responsible for creating the conditions for the Oct 7 attack to happen, and I hope this will finally lead to him disappearing from the Israeli political scene and tarnish his reputation. But it's important to acknowledge that Israel WAS trying a different way to approach the conflict before Oct 7. We withdrew from Gaza (both military and settlements) unilaterally in 2005. Before Oct 7 Israel had recently increased the number of Gazans with permits to work in Israel. Egypt and the UN were working to reduce tensions. But still Hamas chose to invest everything they could in the infrastructure to carry out Oct 7 (including resources that should have gone to civilians), and they chose to attack, and since the beginning of the war have repeatedly reiterated their intentions to continue to do more of this kind of attack. They continue to hold 130 Israeli hostages and to hammer Tel Aviv with rockets. The matter of a ceasefire is also in their hands. They have repeatedly refused to release hostages for a humanitarian ceasefire. It's really unclear to me what they're trying to gain by prolonging the conflict, but that's what they're doing.

They have also chosen to fight in a way that maximises the exposure of their civilian population to damage. I would have absolutely no problem with Hamas having tunnels if they used the tunnels to protect their civilian population while the war was going on above ground. But the purpose of the tunnels is to protect Hamas fighters, while using their civilian population above ground as human shields. This is not a parallel to the safe rooms in Israeli homes, which are there for civilians to protect ourselves from rocket fire.

I agree that war is not a natural consequence. Neither is it revenge. War is a last resort when security can't be achieved by other means. But wars also have two sides, and you can't hold Israel solely responsible for this one. Alongside my posts I suggest reading this thread to hear a Gazan critique of Hamas: https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1738450215164915741
See also his thread critiquing the IDF.

NB the Iraq comparison is also really problematic. This is not about randomly toppling a government somewhere the other side of the world, this is about a real and present security threat from a neighbouring country. We don't have the luxury to speculate about Hamas's intentions - unfortunately we didn't believe Hamas for years when they threatened this kind of attack - and then Oct 7 happened. So now we are inclined to take them seriously when they say they intend to repeat it.

if you work a five day week in Israel the weekend is friday and Saturday, School is Sunday to Thursday, some schools also do Friday mornings

Hi, there's no Jewish call to prayer equivalent to the Muslim adhan or church bells. We just turn up :) But also: Jews lived in diaspora as a minority for 2000 years so that would have restricted Jewish "noise" in public space, and also we don't use any musical instruments or amplification on Shabbat so there's also not really a practical way to have a call to prayer.

I hold Israel solely responsible for their actions and Hamas solely responsible for theirs.

I’d actually go further and say each individual is responsible for their actions.

From the youngest and silliest national service man/woman to the generals giving orders and the voices calling for the bombing, and to those plotting in the tunnels to those running amok in the first place terrorising Israeli Jews.

The people I don’t hold responsible are the pitiful starving Palestinian people who have nowhere to run to and have been bombed relentlessly. So many dead, mostly women and children. Nothing but more death and misery can come from this.

Like the pp said, there's school Sun-Fri (Fri is a shorter day). Work is Sun-Thurs; my work generally doesn't schedule anything on Fridays but you're expected to be available for meetings and events on Friday mornings here and there.

I'm used to Sunday as a work day. But since my family observes Shabbat (we don't drive or use technology on Shabbat for example) I do miss having a full free day in the week which isn't Shabbat as it's hard to do outings on Fridays as most things are closed by 2-3pm and it's already Shabbat in the evening. Independence Day and election days are pretty much the only time we really get a full day off work/school with no religious obligations either.

thank you
I remember when i was younger and we learnt the story of the adhan and it was mentioned how Jewish people use the horn for the call to prayer, this story was from over a thousand years ago, so when I saw the horn/siren being blown before the start of shabbat, I immediately remembered that. Was it something that was done in the past as a call to prayer?

Has there been any traditions or religious practices that have been revived after the establishment of a Jewish homeland that you know of?
I read that spoken hebrew was only revived in the last hundred years or so which in itself is quite unique and a incredible feat considering it is now the national language of a country.

I have sooo many questions, alot of general ones about what life is like for a practicing Jewish woman living in Israel, but I also don't want to overwhelm or bore you so I will stop now 😅
And once again thank you for answering all the previous ones

Sorry I stuck the boot in earlier, OP and @TomeTome .

TomeTome, it sounds as though you are a pure pacifist/idealist and refuse to tolerate any compromise on that. 😇

Fair enough... I don't know how old you are; sorry if that sounds patronising, but I think anyone under the age of 90 who grew up in the UK has had the luxury of a war-free existence and to some extent we take it for granted. We might even assume that all you have to do to avoid war is conduct yourself in a reasonable manner and vote for the right people.

I wish life was that simple, but the presence of real and imminent danger changes everything. We're so lucky not to have experienced it.

OP, you say you grew up in a different country. Did you face the same terrifying threats to your daily existence there? If not, do you ever think about going back, in search of safety for you and your family, in light of recent events?

@TomeTome why is it mostly women and children when the male population is roughly 1.13 million and women 1.10?
Where are all the men?
Do you not find that odd?

@israelilefty sorry to interrupt I just wondered if I am missing something? Are the men who worked in Israel still on Israeli soil for example? To explain the disparity?

@Pizdietz the uk has been involved in wars in my lifetime I think maybe you are very young or perhaps not aware. Wikipedia will list them for you if you’ve just forgotten.