Traded hot pants for hijab, i converted to Islam AMA

[user14943608381]

I’m going to be occupied with a cluster feeding newborn so thought an Ama would be fun. So, I used to drink, go clubbing, love mini skirts and dating but I gave it all up and became Muslim. For a little while I even wore the face veil.

Ask me anything!

I’m pretty clued up in theology and the sharia for feel free to ask me anything on that too! (Disclaimer though some opinions are my own and not the ‘majority consensus’)

Hi OP

Do you think headacarf is mandatory or optional? Is there any mention in the Quran asking women to wear this? If so what is the reason behind it?

Im genuinely interested to know about the headscarf OP not trying to reduce women to a piece of clothing.

@BondedwithLanMandragoran

Im genuinely interested to know about the headscarf OP not trying to reduce women to a piece of clothing.

Well, as the OP has stated more than once she she doesn’t wear a headcovering herself,I assume she doesn’t think it’s mandatory.

@BondedwithLanMandragoran

Hi OP

Do you think headacarf is mandatory or optional? Is there any mention in the Quran asking women to wear this? If so what is the reason behind it?

Truth is I don’t know, the majority consensus is that it is.

Hijab is the modern term for what we know as modest clothing and the scarf. It was the custom of the people of Arabia to wear some form of head covering. There are verses that say

‘ O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments.1 That is more suitable that they will be known2 and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful’

Around them is commonly understood to mean covering their cleavage as the traditional cloak of the time covered the head and draped leaving the cleavage exposed. The word cloak is khimar which I think means cover and it does directly imply head covering.

You can see the why in the verse, so they can be recognised as believing women, aka identity politics and modesty

Thank you for this ama, OP.
I had the privilege of doing an adult education course about Islam around 2 years ago, led by a very enlightened, informed and practical Imam. I learned a great deal and realised just how many misconceptions formed our understanding of what should be a compassionate and peaceful faith.

One thing that strikes me is the many references to the hijab that people make. Yet, in the bible, women were told to cover their hair, and nuns and orthodox Jewish women still cover theirs. I wonder why people fixate on the one and not the other.

FWIW, I have kept in contact with the Imam, and although I am pagan, we found shared some very similar perspectives, so we both learned. He is good friends with an Anglican vicar. His wife wears the hijab, some of his daughters do. One of his sons is a Buddhist. In terms of people respect, he's up there.
Unfortunately I haven't had such positive encounters with people from other faiths.

@Hayati79

Thank you for doing this AMA - I’ve found it really informative.

Where/what would you recommend as a starting point for someone who wanted to learn more about Islam, or was thinking about converting (reverting)?

Best resources, i really like shabir ally, he does YouTube videos on some really hard hitting topics, you know the difficult ones. He’s balanced in his thinking. Ismail menk does good talks too x

Hi OP @Namechangetimes100 , I am a Jewish convert (another religion where converts are rarer and therefore integration is more difficult).

Do you ever worry that your DC wouldn't be accepted. My DH is the child of an orthodox Jewish convert and he has felt that he is less accepted as a result (despite his mum spending 3 years converting under the auspices of the london beit din- strictest jewish court with regard to conversion). Its one of the reasons why I converted under the auspices of Liberal Judaism and joined their community as they are very open to mixed marriages. However, Islam doesn't seem to have an official 'Liberal' denomination unless you count Sufi Islam so it all seems very tribal... Do you worry it affects the marriage prospects of your children (this sounds really archaic but in traditional Islam and Judaism, family/marriage is very important). I don't know how its like for Muslims, but very religious orthodox Jews prefer their children to marry into families that have always been religious so there is less of a chance of any backsliding i.e. no grandparents who eat pork etc. If you are in such circles, doesn't it mean your kids might have to marry non muslims or very secular muslims which would also affect their future religious practice. Neither DH or his married sister are religious in the orthodox sense- she married a totally secular Jew.

@onlychildhamster

Hi OP *@Namechangetimes100* , I am a Jewish convert (another religion where converts are rarer and therefore integration is more difficult).

Do you ever worry that your DC wouldn't be accepted. My DH is the child of an orthodox Jewish convert and he has felt that he is less accepted as a result (despite his mum spending 3 years converting under the auspices of the london beit din- strictest jewish court with regard to conversion). Its one of the reasons why I converted under the auspices of Liberal Judaism and joined their community as they are very open to mixed marriages. However, Islam doesn't seem to have an official 'Liberal' denomination unless you count Sufi Islam so it all seems very tribal... Do you worry it affects the marriage prospects of your children (this sounds really archaic but in traditional Islam and Judaism, family/marriage is very important). I don't know how its like for Muslims, but very religious orthodox Jews prefer their children to marry into families that have always been religious so there is less of a chance of any backsliding i.e. no grandparents who eat pork etc. If you are in such circles, doesn't it mean your kids might have to marry non muslims or very secular muslims which would also affect their future religious practice. Neither DH or his married sister are religious in the orthodox sense- she married a totally secular Jew.

So Short answer is no I don’t worry of even think it will impact their marriage prospects, there are several reasons as to why:

the comparison between Islam or Orthodox Judaism isn’t a linear one. It was my understanding anyway that you could only convert to liberal / progressive Judaism as orthodox won’t accept a convert due to the ethnic component of Judaism being passed down the maternal line. So Islam doesn’t have that. Unlike Judaism, Islam and Christianity are proselytising faiths, ie they actively seek to convert people, so converts aren’t actually that rare like you say.

It’s tempting to think that conservative Muslims are comparable to Orthodox Jews, and in some ways it’s true but this is more along the lines of theological conservatism i.e gender segregation, and scriptural literalism, veiling etc BUT normally (not always of course) for those type of Muslims race/ ethnicity tends to be less of an issue as Islam has a very very clear stance on racism being haram and big sin, again the ethnic component isn’t here. Then conversely you have much more cultural Muslims who whilst yes practice, tend to be far less strict on things like music, veiling etc but much more backward on the idea of ethnicity and keeping within their own culture, although slowly but surely this mentality is dying out. So truthfully, if someone won’t accept my child because they aren’t pure Pakistani/ arab then frankly they’ve dodged a bullet and that family are backwards. There are also plenty of ‘white’ born Muslims (Chechen’s, Albanians, kosovans, bosniaks, Turks, not to mention children born to converts).
I think saying Islam is tribal is quite prejudiced actually, certain cultures have tribalism (particularly common amongst gulf Arabs).
Another reason not to worry about marriage is that all of my convert friends have found a spouse with relative ease and it tends to be more difficult for those not born to the religion. My children as also very fair (as am I) think nc15 from mac, and incredibly problematically, being fair in many communities is still seen as preferable, particularly amongst girls.

So in summary no, I don’t worry about or even think about it. I think more about how can I connect them to both cultures when they look distinctly more one way than another. How can I raise them to know that they are mixed so not ‘white’ in the political sense but are white passing, so have privilege there and how they can use it to advocate for others etc

@Namechangetimes100 You can absolutely convert under the auspices of orthodox Judaism! My MIL did. It is just much less common than converting to liberal or progressive judaism due to more strict requirements as you have to live with a observant Jewish family. my MIL lived with 2 different families over the course of 3 years- first family was rejected as it was a woman living alone so not 'good enough'. You have to adopt a fully observant life, learn hebrew etc. In comparison, my liberal conversion was a year of Hebrew lessons/weekly classes/thesis/attendance at services (though I did live with my orthodox MIL for 3 years and this did simplify the process as I was very well versed in Judaism at the end of it).

www.theus.org.uk/article/conversion-2

Realistically though, someone who can just move out and live with a Jewish family for an undisclosed amount of time is likely to be someone young and often female (as Jewish religious families are probably more likely to like a young lady in the house as opposed to a young man). Someone with financial means as the classes with a rabbi are expensive (MIL said it was £10 an hour in 1989; and her fiancee had to go through the lessons too despite being Jewish as he did not grow up religious). Someone who is quite educated as you have to pick up Hebrew and study Jewish law. Someone who is quite stubborn as orthodox halacha states that you must be rejected 3 times. I remember once reading a stat that there was only 25 orthodox Jewish converts every year (number is fairly stagnant) and over 100 Jewish reform converts. At the end of it, an orthodox Jewish convert is considered as Jewish as any born Jew; you aren't even supposed to mention that they are converts in orthodox circles as this would 'set them apart'. The torah speaks of the obligation to love the convert. But of course in terms of marriage, people can be more picky! Its not just converts, even people whose parents and grandparents were not religious (baalei teshuva) can experience difficulty in orthodox circles.

@Namechangetimes100 but yes the summary is orthodox judaism does accept converts! Its just not possible for a lot of people for a variety of reasons. For me, it would not be possible as while my DH grew up in an orthodox home, he is not religious and even my MIL (his mum) told me that an orthodox conversion would not be workable for me as the rabbi would require any new convert who is newly committed to the faith to have an extremely observant spouse (keeps kosher, shabbat and goes to prayers daily). So basically if I wanted to convert orthodox, I would have to divorce which I am not willing to do!

I find it interesting that you said so many new muslim converts drop out; I am not sure about the numbers for Jewish converts, but I think that for orthodox Jewish converts, the number must be very small as they had to jump through so many road blocks to even convert. While liberal converts like myself don't have such an onerous process, we also go through multiple interviews and have to study for a year so I guess that weeds out people who are less interested.

[quote onlychildhamster]@Namechangetimes100 but yes the summary is orthodox judaism does accept converts! Its just not possible for a lot of people for a variety of reasons. For me, it would not be possible as while my DH grew up in an orthodox home, he is not religious and even my MIL (his mum) told me that an orthodox conversion would not be workable for me as the rabbi would require any new convert who is newly committed to the faith to have an extremely observant spouse (keeps kosher, shabbat and goes to prayers daily). So basically if I wanted to convert orthodox, I would have to divorce which I am not willing to do!

I find it interesting that you said so many new muslim converts drop out; I am not sure about the numbers for Jewish converts, but I think that for orthodox Jewish converts, the number must be very small as they had to jump through so many road blocks to even convert. While liberal converts like myself don't have such an onerous process, we also go through multiple interviews and have to study for a year so I guess that weeds out people who are less interested.[/quote]
That’s so interesting! I have a friend who was converting to judaism, progressive and she said you couldn’t convert to orthodoxy, but the Jewish community where I live is small, one orthodox and one liberal synagogue that’s it, so the opportunity to live with an orthodox family probably just isn’t possible. She also said it took close to 3 years and I recall her writing essays and meeting with the rabbi regularly, i think she’s dropped out of that now though.

Re the converts leaving, I think it’s for a array of reasons and I’m not sure lack of religious commitment is one of them. I’d say (and this is a sweeping generalisation) the British community is far less accepting of Muslims than they are of other religious minorities, so converts to Islam are more likely to be shunned by their family and friends. The born Muslim community can be quite cultural and do other converts a bit, the dawah community that pressures people to convert if they are interested for an insta post and a couple of hundred likes but offers no follow up, so people convert and they’re not entirely sure what it means, the pressure to be perfect and to cover etc, converts tend to be more strict than born Muslims and frankly it’s too much too for some and it’s unsustainable, there’s also a huge pressure to get married and ‘compete your deen’ and some of these blokes are pure trash and divorce is high especially when the marriage isn’t civilly registered, so divorced no spousal support and a child and no community or blood family a lot of people will leave because of the sheer isolation.

@Namechangetimes100 you realistically have to move to London for an orthodox conversion. While there may be an orthodox synagogue in your city, that is different from having a observant Jewish community.

my MIL moved country to London after university, she had a small inheritance that funded it. You probably live in Manchester or Birmingham based on your description, I belong to a Jewish converts group and there is this guy from birmingham who badly wants to convert to judaism but doesn't agree with liberal judaism and yet he doesn't have the financial means for an orthodox conversion. Judaism is a communal religion;hence even for progessive judaism, there is still that expectation that you live within commuting distance of a synagogue. Of course for orthodox Jews, you can't drive or take the bus on shabbat so you have to live within walking distance of a synagogue. Preferably within an eruv (a wire boundary around jewish neighbourhoods that extends the Jewish home so you can carry things on saturday like your keys/push a stroller)- In the UK, there are eruvin in north london, manchester and borehamwood (herts). So basically any religious orthodox community would only live in these places.

Its interesting that people are so unaccepting of converts to islam; the argument is usually that they are now adopting an 'austere lifestyle' that is very different to western social norms.

if I look at my MIL, I don't actually think she is any different from any convert to islam in terms of lifestyle (even if the convert is very strict). My MIL covers her hair, she wears floor length dresses (can't even wear trousers), she eats kosher (stricter than halal), she cannot enter a church (missed her brother's wedding). Yet I don't think she has ever faced racial abuse; at least even if she has, its definitely not on the same level as many muslim women i know. This may be because while she dresses modestly, its not in the same fashion as many religious Jewish women- so you can't tell if she is Jewish or just likes long skirts. So I think its definitely xenophobia...

@Namechangetimes100 I think for me though, any reservations I have isn't with Islam in itself but with dual nationality. Many British Muslims either have dual nationality or the ability to obtain dual nationality. If I married a Muslim man and he took my child to Pakistan or Iran, I know the law there would not be on my side with regards to custody arrangements. I would have no issues with marrying a Singaporean Muslim theoretically as that is where I am from and I know that I would be treated fairly there. Which is why many of my friends back home have married Muslims and their families have zero issues. Singapore doesn't allow dual nationality so there is no question of their children being taken anywhere outside Singapore...The same cannot be said for some of the more conservative states of Malaysia or indonesia. Let alone the likes of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or UAE...

[quote onlychildhamster]@Namechangetimes100 I think for me though, any reservations I have isn't with Islam in itself but with dual nationality. Many British Muslims either have dual nationality or the ability to obtain dual nationality. If I married a Muslim man and he took my child to Pakistan or Iran, I know the law there would not be on my side with regards to custody arrangements. I would have no issues with marrying a Singaporean Muslim theoretically as that is where I am from and I know that I would be treated fairly there. Which is why many of my friends back home have married Muslims and their families have zero issues. Singapore doesn't allow dual nationality so there is no question of their children being taken anywhere outside Singapore...The same cannot be said for some of the more conservative states of Malaysia or indonesia. Let alone the likes of Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or UAE...[/quote]
Don’t take this the wrong way but that seems a bit of an irrational fear. Most millennial bornMuslims in the UK are second gen, meaning they are born here so only have citizenship of the UK and would have to apply for Pakistani etc citizenship. My husband actually wasn’t even born here and he only has UK citizenship. That concern which is basically kidnapping could be the same for anyone who has dual nationality and is a bit of a dick?

@Namechangetimes100 British Jews have been here since Cromwell; my DH is 4th generation and his family have been in London for 100 years. However, he has the right to return to Israel (as do I as his wife and also separately as a convert even if we divorced); and his sisters have both exercised that right. So theoretically he could take our future child to Israel but I am not super worried about that given that women have equal rights in Israel. Israel even has a law which bars Jewish men who deny their wives religious divorces (for orthodox jews, the man has to grant a religious divorce and this is separate from the civil divorce) from entering Israel. I would also not be unduly concerned about someone who has dual american or european citizenship as these are countries where women have comparable rights as in the UK in the civil system.

I really would not say the same about Pakistan or Iran. Of course I don't know how hard it is to get Pakistani citizenship. My friend who is third gen has Pakistani citizenship so I can't imagine its that difficult to get.

@Namechangetimes100 for a start, Pakistan isn't a signatory to the Hague convention, but america, israel and all european countries are...

@thecherryontop

Can you recommend a good app for learning to pray please? Or indeed recommend how you found it best to learn? Thank you

I used the YouTube videos for children some are very good that follow the whole prayer and other repeats the short suras so you can learn

[quote onlychildhamster]@Namechangetimes100 for a start, Pakistan isn't a signatory to the Hague convention, but america, israel and all european countries are...[/quote]
Surely the answer to that is marry someone you trust and don’t rush into having kids? Which to me is just a solid principle to live by rather than a beating stick for Muslims

Sorry but that’s the same argument that’s used by the likes of my intensely islamaphobic mother

@Namechangetimes100 sure but you only need to hop over to the relationships forum to see how things can go badly wrong- am sure that all the ladies there know to marry someone they trust and not to rush into having kids. That forum is brilliant when it comes to dealing with abusive men...in the uk. Not much help outside of it..Things happen but hopefully we women are lucky enough to live in a society which protects our rights and likewise for our child. I wouldn't say it's a beating stick but it's just an additional factor to take into consideration in cross cultural marriages.

@Namechangetimes100 but anyway that has more to do with culture/nationality than religion per se! I grew up in a country where Islam is funded by the government and Muslims account for 15% of the population, where criticising Islam is a crime, where Eid is a national holiday, where I wouldn't eat in front of Muslim friends during Ramadan (and that was the done thing). But yet at the same time, I also know extremism is taken very seriously by the Muslim community and the imams work really closely with the government to monitor extremist activity, all Muslim marriages are registered with the government (so there is practically no chance of a Muslim man taking a second wife as I think most applications are rejected and I have never met anyone with a second wife). It's a different ballgame in the UK, as I feel like there are lots of different Muslim communities- some very integrated, some less so. It's why Sajid Javid supports the raising of the age of marriage because he himself had cousins who were married off quite young...

It's the same for the Jewish community too, but then the difference is that it is almost unheard of for a secular person to marry an ultra orthodox man or woman (unless they were
already Jewish and going down the road of becoming more religious). And usually for such people, it's not actually that easy for them to get a match anyway as the ultra orthodox like to marry people whose families have been religious back from the time of the Baal Shem Tov. The ultra orthodox are an extremely insular community! So naturally, I feel like I don't completely understand it...

Is Mohammad considered to have been timeless and flawless or just a normal man with the flaws of his time?

Hi OP!

I am also a convert I had a question for you, you seem to have done more studying than me.

I also have small children and I struggle with how to teach them about islam yours are slightly younger than mine but I was wondering how are you planning on tackling that. (Btw MIL is also a convert so not a lot of help there...) Thanks!

@grey12 Learning Roots have some really great resources, I find these better than apps for kids, also -do your children attend weekend school? -Some start from 3/4? My children getting older has made me feel I need to up my game.

@Ubiquery

Is Mohammad considered to have been timeless and flawless or just a normal man with the flaws of his time?

I wouldn't use the terms flawless and timeless. More apt would be that he is seen to be the best of character in human terms.

[quote thecherryontop]@grey12 Learning Roots have some really great resources, I find these better than apps for kids, also -do your children attend weekend school? -Some start from 3/4? My children getting older has made me feel I need to up my game. [/quote]
Thanks for the suggestion

My kids have actually started this year in an islamic school so it's great they have that exposure to learning about islam.

I do feel I should do better at home.... but I have always found that literature about islam is very difficult to read..... DH bought a more simple book about the prophets which I was super excited to read!! And then it had 2 whole pages saying that Allah had presented Adam to the angels over and over again..... with no extra information whatsoever I would like to find simple information so I know the stories myself (with a view to deepen the knowledge afterwards)