My son is a trans man AMA

[User444]

I have been interested in the AMA threads from trans people and thought it may be good to discuss from another perspective. I hope I won't be flamed for it. I have been a mumsnet member for many years since my now adult DC were much younger. I have name changed for this.

Thanks for the thread OP. You sound like a great mum with how you've supported your children.

My eldest is only 11 but identifies as non binary. They are very strong and informed in their opinions already and I'm doing my best to support them.

@drspouse

You sound slightly goady. Of course someone can attend a group and not have their feelings reinforced. I.e. I used to attend sunday school but strongly opposed many of the things they tried to teach us.

[quote IdblowJonSnow]@drspouse

You sound slightly goady. Of course someone can attend a group and not have their feelings reinforced. I.e. I used to attend sunday school but strongly opposed many of the things they tried to teach us.[/quote]
You didn't attend Sunday school after already deciding you were a Christian, I assume?

My analogy is someone who had already decided they were going to follow a religion and then attended a religious group.
Like the OP's child who had already decided they were trans and THEN went to the trans group.
But obviously lots of people go to a religious group neutral (i.e. as young children with no pre-existing ideas) and ALSO come out believing in the ideas of the group.

@TheRebelle

What a fucking horrible comment

O/p, reading through you still seem to be saying that these “internal feelings” about gender are linked to social roles.

Your son liked martial arts, diy, scouts were more interesting, he didn’t like pamper days or make up.

Without referring to social roles, can you or your son explain why he felt like the wrong gender? Not just what he liked or didn’t, but why he felt his body was wrong?

Because the more I read on trans identity, it seems to be social roles. Why wouldn’t he have been happy dressing and behaving like a man, but keeping his female identity?

Do you think if society were genuinely less binary with gender roles there would be fewer teens thinking they are the wrong sex?

@user444 no questions but wanted to say what a fantastic and supportive mum you sound like!

This is so interesting thank you Op. I try to think I'm open minded, and supportive of everyone wanting to be how they want. I have a hard time getting my head around the around Trans.

I know from growing up that people can be very rigid in their thoughts. I had short hair and likes to workout with weights, age 15-20 therefore I must be a lesbian. I can see why people might want to just change to suit the expectations of others.

Have a boy and a girl Dc I try not to treat them differently or influence them, but it is so hard. Should I take my DD to ballet or should I take her to football like I did for DS? Should I have let DS try ballet ? He did do a street dance class, but he couldn't follow it as the girls were so much more advanced than him.

Would you rather we could all just be ourselves have ourselves defined by our gender?

@Biscuitandacuppa

Are you concerned at all about the perception that only ‘female’ people wear make up, like pink, and ‘girly’ hobbies?

I have short hair, can paint, decorate, fit skirting boards, plaster and manage basic car care and electrics. I don’t own anything pink, never wear make up, don’t own a pair of high heels. But I am unequivocally a woman, I gave birth to my child and breast fed.

To me gender and gender roles are a social construct that seek to keep me within tightly defined parameters that are acceptable to society (patriarchy). Do any of these issues concern you and make you question whether your child has been radicalised by trans politics into believing that not fitting into an artificial image of womanhood means that are in fact male?

Sorry I didn't reply to this earlier. I was tired last night and have missed a few posts, which I will try to answer now. If I still miss some out please remind me.

I am not concerned about the stereotypical idea that females are girly. It is not my lived experience and not one I believe in. I have never influenced my DC to believe that either, nor have I subscribed to stereotypical male roles.
I too don't own high heels, don't wear dresses, have short hair etc. But I can't get my head around anything technical or mechanical. But I know men who can't and other women who can. I don't connect that sort of thing with sex or gender. People all have their own things they are good at and it is as well that is so, or we would be in a mess. I was brought up to believe that men and women can live without the gender constructs, that they should be able to take part in life in the way they are most comfortable. I brought my own two DC up to believe the same and both of them agree that I did not instil anything other than that as they grew up. I believe my DS when he says he felt his gender was wrong as far back as he remembers, which he says is from around 5/6 years old. In 2011, when he came out to me as trans there was not so much in the way of gender politics. He has always said that he was not influenced by not fitting into a definition of womanhood. But he may be mistaken, or he may in fact be using the trans narrative which is common among young people wanting to transition. All I know now is that he is comfortable in his life and very happy. I hope it continues. My other DC sometimes wears feminine clothing, and sometimes is more androgynous. It depends what they are doing and what is practical.

@baggingareaunattended

This is so interesting thank you Op. I try to think I'm open minded, and supportive of everyone wanting to be how they want. I have a hard time getting my head around the around Trans.

I know from growing up that people can be very rigid in their thoughts. I had short hair and likes to workout with weights, age 15-20 therefore I must be a lesbian. I can see why people might want to just change to suit the expectations of others.

Have a boy and a girl Dc I try not to treat them differently or influence them, but it is so hard. Should I take my DD to ballet or should I take her to football like I did for DS? Should I have let DS try ballet ? He did do a street dance class, but he couldn't follow it as the girls were so much more advanced than him.

Would you rather we could all just be ourselves have ourselves defined by our gender?

Yes I would rather we all be ourselves and not be defined by gender. That is how I tried to raise my DC and believe that was successful as they have shown by how they live that they are not bound by society's expectations. To answer whether daughters should be taken to ballet classes or boys pushed towards pursuits such as football, the answer should be to allow them to decide what they are interested in and what they enjoy. Treating our DC the same is not always in their best interests. Far better to treat them different according to want they themselves want and need.

[quote Fireblanket]@user444 no questions but wanted to say what a fantastic and supportive mum you sound like![/quote]
@Fireblanket thank you.

@Nomoreusernames1244

O/p, reading through you still seem to be saying that these “internal feelings” about gender are linked to social roles.

Your son liked martial arts, diy, scouts were more interesting, he didn’t like pamper days or make up.

Without referring to social roles, can you or your son explain why he felt like the wrong gender? Not just what he liked or didn’t, but why he felt his body was wrong?

Because the more I read on trans identity, it seems to be social roles. Why wouldn’t he have been happy dressing and behaving like a man, but keeping his female identity?

Do you think if society were genuinely less binary with gender roles there would be fewer teens thinking they are the wrong sex?

You are probably quite right it does seem to be about social roles. I cannot answer for my son. He has always found it difficult to express how he came to the conclusion that he needed a sex change. As he was never influenced to behave in a female role, and when rejecting pink clothing and requesting a shirt and tie for a social event did not cause me to question him I do not see how the expectations were for him to conform. I cannot answer your other questions I am afraid. Possibly if society was less binary fewer young people would think they were the wrong sex. But transgenderism is not new. I has been around a very long time so cannot all be blamed on society today.

Transgenderism in its present form is new and reflects changes in our society, not positive changes
In the past females presented as males in order to engage in society when females were not allowed
Transsexuals were largely gay men in a homophobic society
Do the long term health implications of testosterone concern you?

@drspouse

OP, you say that your child's trans youth group didn't reinforce their idea that they are male. How can they not have reinforced it? Surely the group was a large number of people all saying "yes, you are right" and that must naturally reinforce their idea?

Saying like this is like saying "my child decided to convert to Islam and later attended mosque but going to mosque didn't reinforce their beliefs".

Second question: did their school start agreeing they were male before they told you? I'm not quite clear from your wording if they agreed your child was male or if they just told your child they had to discuss it with you.

He knew he wasn't male. He knew he would be more comfortable being seen by society as male and by changing his body to to appear male. He joined the trans youth group to spend time with others who felt the same way as he did. The school never agreed he was male. They agreed to support him by treating him as male and facilitated his change of name and ensured his GCSE certificates would have his new name on. They were concerned about possible bullying but in the event he was actually accepted more by his peers than he had been before, when he was simply seen as odd. The school actually received an inclusion award some time later, which was partly due to their support of DS. It was a steep learning curve for everyone involved.

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

Transgenderism in its present form is new and reflects changes in our society, not positive changes In the past females presented as males in order to engage in society when females were not allowed Transsexuals were largely gay men in a homophobic society Do the long term health implications of testosterone concern you?

Yes the long term health implications do concern me. I can only hope he will be OK and will continue to help/support him whilst I am still around.

I did not start this thread because I believed I have all the answers or because I believe I did the right thing in supporting his transition. I am not going to get into arguments or discussions. I can only answer from my own experience of having a transgender child.

They were concerned about possible bullying but in the event he was actually accepted more by his peers than he had been before, when he was simply seen as odd.
Do you not think this is really sad, that a girl who is different to other girls is not accepted, whereas if she decides she is a boy then she can be accepted?
Do you not think this says loud and clear "you can't be who you really are - you can't be a girl who has unusual interests for a girl - because if you are, we will bully you?"

I'm also really struck by the fact that your child has had huge, major surgery but isn't responsible enough medically to take vitamins. And that they say they "never want children" and have said this since very young (presumably since they were a child themselves?) - do you not think this is just a normal part of growing up? And that many people don't want children when they themselves are too young to bring them up, but change their minds later?

How do you feel about the gaslighting that happens when others want to blame you as the reason your child is trans?

I also have a trans child and personally I find it exhausting, every time you try and open a conversation up people, usually subtley, but other times not so subtley, try and find a reason, something that you did, so they can pat themselves on the back because their parenting is superior, and yours is so crap.

I find it hilarious that people say "gender is a social construct" and then go on to list reasons why they aren't enforcing those roles (I have short hair, don't wear makeup, fix stuff etc) which is, in fact, enforcing those roles in itself.

It really isn't easy op, some say they want to understand and learn, but they don't listen, only judge, take the piss and criticise. You've been am absolute Saint not rising to it.

Your son is very lucky to have you.

He knew he would be more comfortable being seen by society as male and by changing his body to to appear male.

This is how I would've (very broadly, obviously) described transgender people a few years ago - people who feel more comfortable if others see them as the opposite sex, suffering from gender dysphoria (even though that in itself is diagnosed primarily by relying on sex stereotypes!) and these are the people I always felt needed protecting in society as long as they weren't doing any harm (again, obviously there are lots of opinions as to what does constitute harm, but this is usually re people born male not trans men).

It's kind of weird how far from that the discourse has come, with 'girl mode', 'boy mode', gender essences etc. But in a way it's pushing it to the logical consequences, because no-one can really articulate what a gender is and how you identify one. (sorry bit of a derail OP but it is good to see your fairly straightforward answers here rather than the pomo stuff on the other threads).

@Biscuitandacuppa

Has your son had any difficulties in establishing a relationship? Is he (sorry personal question) attracted to women? Is his career in a traditionally male dominated profession?

Most importantly is he happy?

Not sure if I answered all of this. My DS is attracted to someone based on who they are and how he feels about them. He is in a relationship with a gay man, who is not trans in any way. He has not had difficulties forming relationships, but doesn't look for a relationship. His life is far too busy for that. He looks on it sort of if a relationship happens it happens. His work is not in a male dominated profession. He works in the Hospitality sector.

*I also have a trans child and personally I find it exhausting, every time you try and open a conversation up people, usually subtley, but other times not so subtley, try and find a reason, something that you did, so they can pat themselves on the back because their parenting is superior, and yours is so crap.

I find it hilarious that people say "gender is a social construct" and then go on to list reasons why they aren't enforcing those roles (I have short hair, don't wear makeup, fix stuff etc) which is, in fact, enforcing those roles in itself.*

I can see why it can feel like you're being judged esp as the context has become so toxic that there really is no discussion anymore. My reading of it (from outside, I have no-one in my family who is trans) is that people are really not trying to blame the parents but rather trying to unearth the conditions which might lead people to feel that they need to feel there is a link between what their bodies look like and their identity. Some of the influence will come through parents but it will also (in much larger spades) come from schools, messages in advertising, stories in books etc. Parents will pass on stereotyped messages which they are enacting without awareness and some will be more or less aware of what they have internalised. But this is not to blame parents. I think the questioning of "what went wrong" is not a question of "what did you do wrong". At least that's how I mean things. As a culture I think we are failing our children massively at the moment. It would be ridiculous to put the blame for that at the feet of parents of trans people and to do so would be a barrier to progress. But not looking at the conditions which have caused such distress to so many people would also be a barrier to progress.

I don't think that pointing out that many women do not fit old-fashioned gendered views is reinforcing them - rather it is deconstructing them as it points out that for many people there is no such thing as dresses/ thinks "like a woman". How do you think that saying "I don't fit the old-fashioned stereotype, how about we move on from that?" is reinforcing the stereotype?

@WrapAroundYourDreams

Your DD is a similar age to me- how long has she been 'non-binary' for?

I'm interested as this was not a thing at all amongst any of my friends growing up and not amongst any of my social group who are in their 30s.

I would say they have been non-binary for around 7 years.(I'm determined to try harder to use correct pronouns). I admit I did wonder whether my DS being accepted as Trans prompted this or if they would have come out as non-binary regardless They do have a lot of non-binary and trans friends. Growing up it was never a thing in their circle.It seems to have become mainstream in the last ten years.

My reading of it (from outside, I have no-one in my family who is trans) is that people are really not trying to blame the parents

Try rereading this thread. Op tried to explain something, used one word to simplify the answer, and people have made snarky "Do you think your attitude around girls and boys things made your child trans" comments.

Yes I do think that the people stating they aren't feminine and listing all the things they perceived as unfeminine reinforces that stereotype, rather than just getting on with their lives like most of us do.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

How do you feel about the gaslighting that happens when others want to blame you as the reason your child is trans?

I also have a trans child and personally I find it exhausting, every time you try and open a conversation up people, usually subtley, but other times not so subtley, try and find a reason, something that you did, so they can pat themselves on the back because their parenting is superior, and yours is so crap.

I find it hilarious that people say "gender is a social construct" and then go on to list reasons why they aren't enforcing those roles (I have short hair, don't wear makeup, fix stuff etc) which is, in fact, enforcing those roles in itself.

It really isn't easy op, some say they want to understand and learn, but they don't listen, only judge, take the piss and criticise. You've been am absolute Saint not rising to it.

Your son is very lucky to have you.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult thank you so much. I do have a lot of patience and try to rise above people who are deliberately goady. I have wanted to start a thread like this for some time but haven't because I knew I would get goady questions and those who think they have all the right answers telling me I am wrong.

You are right it isn't easy. Thankfully in real life I have supportive friends and family. I think I have answered the genuine questions and am not going to try to justify myself to those who have no idea what it is like to deal with this. I have been visiting a very dear sick relative this afternoon and on my way home I am reading some of the posts on here and thinking it really is not worth my time responding as whatever I say will have holes picked in it.

@MonsignorMirth

He knew he would be more comfortable being seen by society as male and by changing his body to to appear male.

This is how I would've (very broadly, obviously) described transgender people a few years ago - people who feel more comfortable if others see them as the opposite sex, suffering from gender dysphoria (even though that in itself is diagnosed primarily by relying on sex stereotypes!) and these are the people I always felt needed protecting in society as long as they weren't doing any harm (again, obviously there are lots of opinions as to what does constitute harm, but this is usually re people born male not trans men).

It's kind of weird how far from that the discourse has come, with 'girl mode', 'boy mode', gender essences etc. But in a way it's pushing it to the logical consequences, because no-one can really articulate what a gender is and how you identify one. (sorry bit of a derail OP but it is good to see your fairly straightforward answers here rather than the pomo stuff on the other threads).

Thank you. Sometimes I am not great at expressing what I want to say but I agree with you. It is clear that quite a number of people responding do not agree with my answers. Maybre that is why the same questions are repeated, are people hoping to hear something different? That won't happen. If you don't agree with my views and how I have supported my DS that's fine. You are entitled to your own opinion.

Try rereading this thread. Op tried to explain something, used one word to simplify the answer, and people have made snarky "Do you think your attitude around girls and boys things made your child trans" comments.

Some people are snarky but I think that is quite a simplistic view of blame tbh. Society as a whole has been complicit in perpetuating a number of unhelpful stories included rigid gendered ones. But that can be seen in context without necessarily being blaming of an individual. I think the question about whether attitudes to stereotypes is a valid one and if we can't have a proper conversation about this, we can't learn. The OP may well have some insights about that issue based on her reflections or what her children have said.

Yes I do think that the people stating they aren't feminine and listing all the things they perceived as unfeminine reinforces that stereotype, rather than just getting on with their lives like most of us do.
People aren't listing things they perceive as unfeminine. They are saying that they are a woman whilst not buying into those stereotypes - because they believe that being a woman has got nothing to do with those stereotypes. I genuinely can't see how that would be reinforcing the stereotype. Can you explain?

@User444

Oh dear so many questions. I will do my best to answer them all. I suppose saying he liked boy stuff was the wrong term. The reason I had a wide range of toys was because I was a childminder. My son would play with mostly gender neutral things like the zoo animals, train set and toy farm. When young he would be helping his Dad with DIY stuff, be out riding his bike, but also happy to be in Rainbows, Brownies and Guides, but aged 13was wanting to move to Scouts but not telling me why. He just said they did more interesting stuff. Like when they did things like makeovers or pamper sessions at Guides he didn't go. He is now a Scout Leader by the way. When he eventually told me how he felt he said he knew something was wrong when younger but didn't know how to describe it. He did have puberty blockers at 14 and a half then testosterone from 16 and a half. Neither of these were initiated by the Tavistock but the Tavistock did take over his treatment later on. I am not prepared to go into full details about who treated him. Some of his surgery was private but mostly NHS and he was 18 for surgery.

I’d hazard a guess then that your child was prescribed cross ex hormones via a private clinic, possibly Gender GP. Possibly even directly from Helen Webberly, who’s currently in court due to her scandalously blasé approach to prescribing untested drugs for children.

My question is, what made you decide to agree to your child taking such untested drugs at such a young age.
Actually, I’d also like to know if your child was involved with Mermaids?