I am Jewish AMA

[Bells3032]

Following answering some Q&As on a thread about the programme Unorthodox thought i'd do an AMA here. I have looked and don't think there's been one since like 2018.

I am a traditional/modern orthodox Jew so not Hasidic like the show but I actually do talks on Judaism as part of my job and I so my knowledge is fairly good and I am rarely embarrassed or offended by questions.

So go ahead AMA

[purdypuma]

So glad I've come across this thread! My mum found out 2 years ago that her father was Jewish but she was never told despite being a close knit family. Both myself & my sister are quite interested in finding out as much as we can so I shall be watching this thread with great interest.

[EachandEveryone]

This might interest some of you. www.jw3.org.uk/whats-on/orthodox-unorthodox-truth-behind-lens

[EachandEveryone]

I am really enjoying the above it’s free to watch live on the JW3 youtube it’s the guy who advised on Unirthodox, a sexual abuse survivor from the community in Manchester an an author. It’s very interesting.

[EachandEveryone]

Oh and the journalist who wrote French Children don’t Throw Food 😂😂

[shepherdessbush]

I am in London on a trip and visited Stamford Hill off the back of this thread as i was completely fascinated. I noted several observations:

1. I have never seen so many Toyota Previas in my life! I walked past what I think was a synagogue and it was like a TP showroom. I also noticed lots of children so presumably lots of 7 seaters necessary, but is there any particular reason they go for TPs?

1. Women were we nearly all wearing the same shoes; a ballet pump with velvet piping. Is this a coincidence or is this a 'prescribed' shoe?

1. Lots of children, but nearly all wearing matching black and white. I know older boys wear these colours but is there a colour code for even young children? The girls were all dressed in the same outfits as the women, so skirts just below the knee and a shirt. Do these have to be specially made, I can't imagine where on the high street you would find these.

1. I smiled at anyone who walked past and they nearly all looked very wary, even the children. This made me think that they might not have much interaction with non-jews, is this true?

[Bells3032]

Hi @shepherdessbush. Will try and answer your questions but I warn you I am not from the Charadi community (the main community you see in Stanford Hill) so will try and give accurate answers to the best of my knowledge:

1. not sure why Toyota's are most popular - as you said lots of people have big families. It may be as simple as they're the biggest cars, they're the cheapest large cars or there's a nearby show room.

2 and 3. generally the Charadi community tend to support a lot of conformity and outfits are usually black and white and very standard so people don't stand out. The shoes are just a practicality point - they're standard and comfortable for lots of running around. I think high heels are discouraged as being too sexual

1. Men in particular won't look directly at women they are not related to. Children are taught this as a young age. It's a sign of respect to your wife/future wife to not do so. There may also be a level of xenophobia there as well of not really engaging with people outside the community. However, this may just be a London in general (I've had lots of non London friends comment that no one in London smiles back or talks to them)

[shepherdessbush]

Thanks @Bells3032. I was very careful not to make eye contact with the men as I read that wasn't a good thing, but was just surprised by the women and children's reaction. As you say though it might just be a London thing.
One other thing I noticed was that the women were paying with milk tokens in Sainsburys, which would lead me to believe that they are either on benefits or very low income. Do the men in the UK study in the synagogue (and therefore not work) in the same way that they do in Israel?

[alexdgr8]

i have just been reading about the tennis player, Angela Buxton, who died recently.
The anti-semitism she faced is quite shocking. not allowed to join clubs, difficulty getting access to training facilities, until Sir simon marks, of marks & Spencer, helped her. she had to retire from competitive tennis early due to injury.
despite winning ladies double at Wimbledon in 1956 with African-American Althea Gibson, her application to join the All England Club was not successful. she reapplied into the 2010s, but still no go.
says it all. Gibson' application was also not successful.

[kinzarose]

I stumbled across some orthodox Jewish cookery/home YouTube channels and I have some questions if that's OK?

The ones I watch make a MASSIVE deal out of shabbas meal, they make at least 3 main dishes, dessert and about 5 salads. Is that religiously prescribed to have so much food? One of them works so she does all of this cooking on a Thursday night after her kids go to bed, which to me seems so stressful. They also use an awful lot of disposable dishes, is that just for ease or is there a religious ruling behind this?

Is there a specific verse in the Torah about the head covering? I was very surprised to learn that both of these women cover their hair in front of their children too - I assumed like Muslims it was only in front of other men. They literally wake up and cover, even if they are alone in the house.

I also started watching My Unorthodox Life. What is the feeling in the Jewish community about this show? I imagine it isn't very positive, but I did wonder if it is staged to some extent, parts of it seem so very far fetched. It's great that despite their differences that they can all come together and still be civil with each other. The father has done a wonderful job in being so accepting of so many changes that obviously contravene his faith.

[Ibizafun]

So funny (and nice) to see so much interest in a life I have grown up with and don’t think twice about. My parents are orthodox, we never switched lights on Shabbat, separate milk & meat dishwashers etc.. but I met and married my now ex dh who didn’t even fast on Yom Kippur. Sadly, my children didn’t see much observance at home so I can’t expect too much of them. Having said that their lovely stepdaddy (dh) insists on Friday night and keeping the basics.

What I have noticed, is that the people I know who converted to united/orthodox seem to have a stronger jewish identity than most and are totally passionate and committed.. there’s a lot I’ve learned from them about my own religion. And yes, they even look jewish!

[shylatte]

@Bells3032 and @Desiringonlychild, would you consider coming back to this thread please?

[shylatte]

Or any other Jews who might be able to answer questions 😬

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte. hello, i am the same poster! changed my name a while back haha.

[shylatte]

Thank you onlychild for coming back! I must admit my interest in the life of (particularly orthodox) Jews started after watching MUL. I've started following some on instagram and found the whole way of life fascinating. I wonder if many young adults/teens want to be less observant, and how (if at all) the community deals with that?
Also is there a religious hierarchy when it comes to what hair is covered with? Is a wig more religious than a scarf, for example? Does the whole hair have to be covered? I've seen some on social media who have the first couple of inches of hair showing, so how much is too much?
Also how do bald men or those with little hair keep their skull cap on? Is there a type of special glue or something? Is it true that the marital bedroom is "secret" and children should not enter it?

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte I am not an orthodox jew but i don't think a scarf is less religious. my MIL is orthodox and has never wore a wig, she usually wears a hat (and a lot of israeli women also do amazing things iwth scarves). Both are acceptable but i find haredi women are more likely to wear wigs (as they are more conformist). The more religious people even wear a hat over the wig, so its a double covering. my MIL used to work as a secretary for Chabad and she said in that community, she felt like she had to wear a wig as a married woman for work, which i thought was a bit unfair as a nice quality wig of real human hair costs thousands.

For bald men, interesting! men with hair use hairclips. I don't think they use glue, but of course it would get blown away with wind. I have seen orthodox men running while holding onto their kippahs.

I never heard of any secret bedrooms. That would be quite difficult for most orthodox jews as those in London often have to live in smaller homes when they were younger. my orthodox MIL had 3 children in a 40 sq metre 1 bed flat as she was in negative equity for much of the early 1990s and my DH was 7 when they moved to a terrace with 3 bedrooms. My DH didn't even have a cot, he co slept with his parents and later had a child mattress on the floor in the bedroom. Such a set up would not be unusual esp in places like Stamford hill where its often family of 9 in 2 bedroom flats- I can't imagine all 7 children squeeze in 1 room (probably the boys would sleep in the reception and the girls in the other bedroom, but some of the younger children must share their parents' bedroom).

[shylatte]

Thanks for answering onlychild. That's really interesting about very large families in tiny flats. Do they come under more scrutiny from social services because of this overcrowding? I imagine this must be very stressful for the mums, do they have a higher incidence of PND? I'm wondering how they do the shabbat meal in such a small space? The ones I've seen make the meal very elaborate and set a big table etc, but I suppose if you don't have the space that simply isn't an option.

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte you don't need a huge space to do the shabbat meal with candles. Remember many orthodox families don't have television and in British homes, the entire reception area is centred around the TV. If you lose the TV/sofas, you have space for a large table which also doubles as a study table for the yeshiva boys. I learnt this for my own flat too (no TV and it saves a ton of space). The kitchens they have are the same size as mine- the difference is they have more children in the same space.

I actually think that they probably have a lower rate of PND. When a religious woman gives birth, everyone sends meals to her so she doesn't need to cook (my ex next door neighbor even set up a roster online so people could book slots to send her food). The community values children so it's a lot of mazel Tovs. When you go to synagogue, no one minds you bringing a lot of prams.Compare that with a non religious woman- might have more space but more likely to encounter people who would tell her you can't have children without garden/nanny (my MIL encountered such people too but as she is religious, she had far more people telling her otherwise and wasn't too affected; but a lot of mums are probably more affected and feel insecure). And non religious people like me would probably find the transition to motherhood more difficult than my MIL as I am used to having disposable income to eat out at least twice every week, used to have my home office, used to overseas holidays. If you want to replicate that kind of lifestyle with children, you need more £££ and a lot of women probably do suffer a loss in standard of living as a result. Compare that to my MIL, she had babies within a year of being married so she has no idea of the carefree life with fewer financial responsibilities and hence has no idea of what she is missing.

[shylatte]

Do only religious women get help/support? Also are religious people more likely to be poor?

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte I am in a reform synagogue and my synagogue is more focused on things like social justice and helping refugees. We are trying to get people more engaged with their Judaism, but it is very hard as the young people have their own lives and their own activities; also it is harder to build a community when your members are scattered all over london and beyond (i belong to a central london synagogue, and reform jews would move to a place with few jews but orthodox Jews never would). Compare that to an orthodox Jewish community where everyone lives within 0.5 miles- its easier to form friendships. It is easier to get help if you are religious. Yes technically any Jew can go to the gemach (place which lends out clothes toys, electric goods money, wedding dresses etc) or you can get food parcels sent to your home (they don't check income either so I guess its a honor system); but these places are run by very religious people so you would probably feel more comfortable approaching them if you are religious. Also you would only be able to form meaningful relationships if you keep strictly kosher as religious jews would not be able to eat at someone's house where they didn't trust the kashrut. Thats also a big reason why young Jews would primarily form friendships with other religious Jews even if they have normal jobs--- it is much harder to be friends with someone if you can't eat with them (reform jews don't have such constraints). my SILs are vegetarian and much more liberal about kashrut than most orthodox jews so they do have non jewish friends despite being observant.

Haredi Jews are more likely to be poorer as the men learn full time and they also have more children surviving on one income. Modern orthodox don't actually face that many obstructions to earning a decent income if they have a degree and can work in an office job/in the NHS/civil service (as these jobs tend to be more flexible around shabbat; and you can always break shabbat to save a life if you are a doctor).And modern orthodox tend to be quite well educated; my MIL's close personal friends include 3 oxbridge graduates, 3 doctors, an accountant, an ex lawyer and this is not unusual at all. my SIL is a creative and she once complained that all her friends/boys she would meet at Jewish society were very pragmatic about earning a living, but I do think that it is understandable. The Haredim are happy to live off benefits, kind donors and do all sorts of cash in hand businesses (and also lead a simpler life); but the modern orthodox have similar living standards to secular society and also send their children to university, pay for their weddings, give them housing deposits. Except the big difference is that they are restricted to Jewish areas in North London, Herts and Manchester; and most of these areas are quite expensive to live in if you are not a professional. So they advise their children accordingly. There was a thread earlier about how people in trades outearn their counterparts in university by age 21 so more young people should become tradesmen if they want to earn serious money. I was telling my DH that most religious modern orthodox jews probably wouldn't give their kids that kind of advice, I mean, I am sure there is some rich Jewish plumber on 200k out there who manages to earn that kind of money and keep shabbat at the same time but what would you think of a plumber not coming to your house because its Friday/Saturday? If you are a doctor or accountant, your clients would not mind if you go home at 3 pm on Friday. So Jews do encourage their children into academia and not just because they historically valued education.

[shylatte]

I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions only.
One more thing for now. I recently through work read a case law verdict about a severely brain injured baby who's parents are Haredi. They are in Manchester (this is a public verdict so I'm not revealing anything 'secret') and were refused permission to take her for continued treatment in Israel. What was really weird was that the family, "for personal reasons" made the decision not to visit the child, and had very little contact with her in 18 months. Is there any particular religious reason why that might have been?

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte www.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/23/father-of-two-year-old-alta-fixsler-appeals-to-nhs-to-allow-daughter-to-die-at-home

Is it this case? It is not as clear cut in Judaism as in Catholicism. The principle for most orthodox Jews is that euthanasia is not allowed due to sanctity of human life. But ultimately this couple would have consulted their rabbi and their rabbi would have given advice to do as they did.

[shylatte]

Yes that is the case. I totally understand their reasoning behind not wanting to end her life, but can't understand why they would choose not to visit her. According to the verdict they had seen her a handful of times in 18 months. That just seems so odd to me, and I was wondering whether there was anything 'religious' about this. They only had one older child too, it wasn't as if they were so busy looking after 7 other kids.
It's a very sad story, I hope the little girl gets peace one way or the other.

[shylatte]

Sorry only, that's another thing - do rabbis have the 'final word' on how/what families should do? I've seen quite a few on social media saying that 'we spoke to our rabbi about xyz and he said x/y/z'. It put me in mind of catholics back in the 80s who took the priest's word as 'the gospel', and his ruling would have completely directed the course of events. Is it the same thing?

[onlychildhamster]

@shylatte you pick a rabbi/community that is closest to your ethos. So yes while more religious people really do consult their rabbis about all sorts of little things,they do have the ability to pick their rabbi and hence their advice. Unlike catholic priests, there is a wider spectrum of observance. Some Haredi Rabbis would allow internet for work and educational purposes, some haredi rabbis have a blanket ban on internet (probably not many nowadays).

When Jewish women discuss where to live online, they also don't just want to be in a generic jewish area, what kind of community lives there is also very important. For example, my MIL would not be happy living in stamford hill as she is not haredi; she is observant on kashrut and shabbat and strict on these things, but she is also a feminist and a Green Party voter and a hippie who believes in homeopathy. She consults a rabbi who is more liberal as a result and gives her the OK on a lot of things that a Haredi rabbi would not.

[shylatte]

That's very interesting. Do you think a Haredi would 'look down' on a reform/Liberal and feel they aren't religious enough?
I wonder about Haredi children with SEN, how they would get educated? My understanding is that they don't send their dc to mainstream schools, so would they make an exception or just keep them at home to "home educate?".