I am Jewish AMA

[Bells3032]

Following answering some Q&As on a thread about the programme Unorthodox thought i'd do an AMA here. I have looked and don't think there's been one since like 2018.

I am a traditional/modern orthodox Jew so not Hasidic like the show but I actually do talks on Judaism as part of my job and I so my knowledge is fairly good and I am rarely embarrassed or offended by questions.

So go ahead AMA

@Dillydallyingthrough

I wonder about that. Is it jealousy? It has to be something really deep to have fostered the hatred for so long. The first of the Abrahamic religions? A sense from the others that they will never quite get that place?

Certainly, in some RC communities, my experience is that that kind of questioning can be construed negatively as though you are lacking faith that everything will turn out OK or you are a trouble maker. There's a hint of it but it is there with some of the snitchier types

We had Jesuits at school (in California) who seemed to like us debating with them, and formed the more liberal side of being Catholic - one of them married a nun which was really exciting.

There was a sort of resident Rabbi, who called himself the, 'wandering Jew,' as he enjoyed walking around going to schools that weren't specifically Jewish and talking to people. It was thrilling when we discussed the New Testament with the Rabbi as if it was something almost illicit.

But the theme that really struck me was how religion could be debated and discussed being respectful but people simply had different opinions.

My DS (12) goes to a very diverse school, and they all take religion as a mandatory subject until Y11.

serenada it's just so difficult to understand and like you the only thing I can put it down to is a form of jealousy. But I've always thought I must not understand or be missing something.

@ilovemydogandMrObama

Jesuits def like arguing. You have to be prepared to lose with them - they always win!

I have turned to a Jewish site to try and understand the Old Testament as the foundation from which Christianity came. It always seemed to me that we are taught to accept everything as a matter of faith when it is actually belief. By that I mean, we don't explore the faith critically in the way I think Jewish communities do - there is a sense of don't do that and certainly not from a piercing critical view. I mean criticism in the way you would look critically at a text not criticism as in a negative approach.

I have found more answers in reading Jewish explanations - the tone, the language (in English), the clarity have given me something solid that I couldn't find in Christianity.

I also feel like I've come home in that space - like I'm finally on solid ground. Must be cultural I think as I'm a Londoner and part of the immigrant metropolis experience.

Would also just like to say that you will never, ever find any criticism of the Jewish community from the Irish of the 60s who settled in South London. The Jewish community was always very kind to our parents and we were raised on stories from when our parents first arrived here. (Lots of nurses in nursing homes/digs/hospitals)

fascinating thread, thankyou for the insights

one question i had, how is divorce viewed within the community/religion? are there single mothers and are they supported or shunned. mainly as i know in a lot of other communities there is a huge stigma associated with divorce even in cases of very abusive marriages and the feeling always seems to be it is better to stay married and suffer rather than get divorced as the shame of that is greater.

Jesus did not set out to create a different religion. His message was of a focus on the fundamentals of Judaism: trust in God and love your neighbour. He spoke against what he saw as the excessive focus on ritual and rigid interpretation of Law at the cost of love. The only really un-Jewish parts of his message were about him being the son of God and the sole conduit between the people and God.

Remember, Jesus was Jewish, all his followers were Jewish and all their worship and practice was Jewish. Jews do not proselytise to not-Jews, so the followers of Jesus spread their philosophy only among their fellow Jews. But after Jesus died, Paul of Tarsus proselytised to non-Jews, and created the first non-Jewish followers of Jesus. Jews did not accept these followers of Jesus as Jews, which would have caused tension. That was the first separation or branching. The Romans did not differentiate between them.

For the next 100 years after Jesus' death, the Romans persecuted the Jews in Israel, destroying the Temple and taking tens of thousands of Jews of all denominations, including followers of Jesus, into slavery outside Israel.

Christianity flourished in exile. It focused on a better world to come, and de-emphasised the Jewish rituals which would have been very hard to adhere to. This was the second separation, such a large separation that Christianity could no longer be considered a branch of Judaism.

By the time of Emperor Constantine, another 150 years later, Christianity was firmly established in the Roman Empire, and the various Christian authorities were making deliberate policies to distance Christianity from Judaism: eg changing the day of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, forbidding commemoration of the Last Supper from being held on Passover and changing the religious calendar from the Jewish calendar to the Roman calendar. Constantine did not believe in either religion, but he was politically canny and saw a monotheistic religion as a way of strengthening his empire. He vacillated between the religions, gradually coming down more and more on the Christian side, and converted on his deathbed.

That was it. Christianity was established as the religion of the Roman Empire, the religion of politics and authority. At the sane time denigration of Judaism was established, to ensure Jews could not derive any power from and confusion with their religion’s younger brother.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

@yummytummy Divorce is a last resort. But it is not viewed in the same way as it is in christianity. Religious jews do and absolutely can divorce . What orthodox Jews require is a get (Jewish divorce document) to get divorced, which is a divorce document presented by a husband to his wife. Which becomes problematic as if the husband refuses, the wife becomes an agunah (or chained wife) who is unable to leave her marriage. Note that this is separate from the civil divorce. it becomes a nightmare if the husband is unscrupulous and uses the get as a tool for exhorting money or manipulation. A lot of people get around this problem by signing a prenup prior to marriage stating that the husband would grant a get in the event of divorce in all circumstances. Also, some communities support agunah by ostracizing the husband (boycotting his business if he has one, not calling him up for honours during the synagogue service). Israel even jailed a guy who refused to grant his wife a get for over 19 years. But some men are very stubborn.

www.myjewishlearning.com/article/agunot-a-different-kind-of-hostage/
www.thejc.com/judaism/features/the-search-for-solutions-to-the-plight-of-agunot-must-go-on-1.495912

Desiringonlychild thankyou for the response. that is interesting that it can be written in. are there any single mums you know of in the community or would they tend to move away/leave?

@serenada - You make a really good point about the Old Testament from a Jewish perspective. I will look into this as some of the biblical stories (not sure this is the correct term, but no disrespect) were really scary. Leviticus, for one.

@PikesPeaked - Your message reminded me of a group, and it may have been an American group that called themselves, 'Jews for Jesus.' I never understood this.

Jesuits def like arguing. You have to be prepared to lose with them - they always win!

The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) formed the Jesuit order as a response to the Protestant reformation. They felt like they were losing a lot of the theological arguments, or at least weren't used to having them questioned, so they trained the Jesuits to be skilled in debating.

I grew up in a pretty strict RC family, then dropped out in my 20's due to the rampant misogyny.

Pikespeaked

That was it. Christianity was established as the religion of the Roman Empire, the religion of politics and authority. At the sane time denigration of Judaism was established, to ensure Jews could not derive any power from and confusion with their religion’s younger brother.

This is the bit I struggle with. How can we embrace Christianity when we know it was built on the back of Jewish denigration?

@yummytummy it depends on what you mean by single mum. In the orthodox community, I know of at least 2 orthodox divorcees who are frum. But they were married with kids before. Tbh, I never met a Jew who had kids out of wedlock (no marriage). Of course having kids out of wedlock is a big no no in the orthodox community. I don't think it would be a problem in my very liberal community. Its just that my liberal community is also very middle class and middle class people tend to marry (and divorce).

@MissConductUS that makes sense

I don't feel we are able to defend ourselves ably. Much of the criticism of religion in general seems to come from misunderstood ideas or ideas that when you take them out of context lose their meaning. OP's explanation of the mikveh and her response to the idea of 'unclean' for example. I don't think people realise that the things they criticise are often the sensible parts of practice honed over the years by ordinary people who had to make sense of these things and inherited customs and tradition from their parents.

@yummytummy Modern orthodox communities are fine with divorcees. They may not be so happy if you were not raising the kids to be less religious. But that probably applies to everyone, not just divorcees.

Pikes., yes., good post except Jesus I thought was not keen on the 10,000 rules of the old testament etc which could get a bit petty and wanted to pare it back to the main ones and loving each other.

@PikesPeaked - that was an excellent summary of the history of the early Christian church. The one thing that I'd add is that there was one element of the church's teaching that had never been actively offered to gentiles - social justice and charity. A Roman senator remarked that what made Christianity a threat was that they not only fed their own poor, they fed poor Romans as well.

For anyone interested in a deeper dive into the early church I heartily recommend this book. I have it as an ebook on my Kindle.

The Triumph of Christianity: How a Forbidden Religion Swept the World

This is the bit I struggle with. How can we embrace Christianity when we know it was built on the back of Jewish denigration?

How can we embrace when it was built on the back of misogyny/xenophobia/aggressive control?

What is the central message of pretty much any religion? Generally it's something to do with community harmony and an understanding of our place in the universe. Everything else builds up, layer upon layer, informed by the structure of society at that time. Sometimes the central message gets distorted. It's not a reason to discard the whole faith and it's structure.

What past is prologue. It informs our choices but should not dictate them. Let's move forward together, as sisters or cousins, each secure in her own faith and building upon the positives.

I am interested in whether Jewish people on here agree with @PikesPeaked post and whether it tallies with their interpretation of Jesus/Christianity.

It is what I was taught. Am just curious if there is another view to approach it from.

That's exactly what I said, xenia.

He spoke against what he saw as the excessive focus on ritual and rigid interpretation of Law at the cost of love.

I thought Jews rejected Jesus and Mary?

@PikesPeaked

But I get the feeling that we could lift something off of the Jewish people by acknowledging/doing something we are not currently doing.

For example - how can a community real when we have also made them responsible for protecting the memories of the Shoah? We have put all the responsibility of education and policy onto the Jewish community an only recently identified the underlying factor that led to it - Christians relationship with Judaism and the issue of Jesus.

My understanding of this period in history was that it was actually almost erased from the public during the 60's/70s and that it was people like Simon Weisenthal that worked to build educational programs, etc that sought to remind people of what happened.

My ex-housemate is Jewish. Her family (except her father) died in Auschwitz and they only have small fragments of their life before the war to hold on to. Why should she have to carry all this weight herself when we should be lifting it off her? I know people will say present day generations aren't responsible but if we identify with Christianity now we have to look at what we can do right, not just ignore what we did wrong and consign it to the past.

Perhaps I'm not explaining that very well.

I would also be really interested on any Jewish views on the WW2 Pope's files that recently became available. I imagine lots of scholars are still going through them with a fine toothcomb.

how can a community real when we have also made them responsible for protecting the memories of the Shoah?

I'm trying to say - how can a community move forward, breathe, leave the past behind them when we make them responsible for all of the horrific history? We have to share the burden more.

(I also appreciate that many people want to do this to honour their ancestors - I just mean non Jews have to take more on).

@PikesPeaked

Also, Pikes this phrase is key when we are talking about actualizing a realm 'What('s) past is prologue.'

We will continue to deepen this wound if this is the principle we are built on.

Sorry, serenada, I don't understand.

My view is that we are not responsible for the actions of our ancestors, only for our own actions and the consequences of our actions.

@yummytummy the view on divorce is that although we hold marriage to be of great importance, the laws of divorce are written into law - so the law recognises that even though marriage is holy, it is not always right for a couple. No, divorcees are not shunned. They do tend to create their own support groups within a community but I think that's just because people with shared experience and trauma tend to look for each other as they can understand each other in a way others can't. I think again some aspects of community life are more challenging for single parents, and there are groups that are set up to help with that and to raise awareness but I doubt it's a perfect system. There are always discussions and opinion pieces in the frum Jewish magazines so we will always try to improve how we treat others.

Having said that, I think that abuse and domestic violence have only come out from 'under the rug' in the last few years (decades?). I think it's following a similar trend outside to what's happened in the last 30 years or so outside of Jewish communities. I think in our parents and grandparents generations, women were taught to put up with a bad marriage 'for the sake of the children' and the sake of marriage and divorcing was rare, even when it absolutely should have happened, whereas nowadays you would be encouraged to divorce. I think the younger Jewish generations also are quicker to leave a bad marriage and not suffer in silence. (I think that's a good thing by the way). Pre nups are becoming more common in America and Israel I believe to roevent the aguna situation. Its considered abusive to refuse a get (Jewish divorce).