Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #62

Anyone know what date the case will finish?

I think we’ll all have died before the end.

Nick Wallis just posted on x that he had been told Bethany Hutchinson and Jennifer Melle have been called to give evidence to the tribunal.

I have just finished re watching Micheal Foran and made three pages of notes.

he has had sight of the particulars of claim, and cited a few key facts.

And an outline of the current case.

I am now working on a post for here it may be a bit long.

Here is Mr Foran

https://knowingius.org/p/peggie-v-royal-college-of-nursing?publication_id=2711221&post_id=216936317&r=4p2qy&triedRedirect=true

HIGHLGHTS OF THE MICHEAL FORAN TALK TONIGHT

(Please forgive grammar/spelling mistakes as need to do other things)

The first thing to note is her second claim against the NHS which is due to lack of disclosure, what came out in the first trench of her hearing, the NHS public statement, and detriments arising from this that could not be addressed in the first claim.

Sandies claim against the RCN in summary is that

they failed to provide support, advice or referral for legal support in both her first and second claim against the NHS, and that this was because they had adopted an institutional belief in Gender identity ideology.

unions are mentioned in the EQA, and there was a failure to support GC workers in their protected belief, and their rights to single sex changing rooms as per the workplace regs

some facts

on or around the end of December 2023 early January Sandie telephoned her union representative Stuart Frazier re her special leave situation.

He did not advise her about her rights or refer up for a legal review.

the presumption Sandie asserts is that this was because they RCN treated her as if she had behaved unlawfully, and therefore needed support in facing a disciplinary process, of which she was guilty.

they failed to assess her case from a neutral point of view

this resulted in her having to seek independent advice.

Sandie’s solicitor Margaret Gribbon contacted RCN December 2024 with regard to Sandie’s second claim against the NHS asking for application form for legal support.

January 20th 2025 Margaret spoke to Stuart Frasier, he told her the RCN assistant director, Norman Proven decided in a meeting that a solicitor would not be provided for the second claim, because Sandie was in a legal contract with Margaret.

Margaret explained that she had not provided legal advice for the second claim.

Margaret asked for a written explanation which was not forth coming at the time.

At the end of the first section, of the first hearing, Sandie e mailed Stuart at the RCN, and received a reply on 24th February, (an e mail i have written down verbatim)

it said they could not separate her first and second claim, they were inextricably linked.

Sandie’s argument is that in their explanation they had not given her application regarding her second complaint to the NHS a proper legal assessment or provided her with that assessment.

further that they had decided from the very beginning of her case that, because they had adopted an institutional belief in favour of trans rights, that they did not want to be associated with her case.

and as a result failed to robustly advocate for single sex facilities in accordance with the law, which as a trade union they should have done.

Micheal thinks this is an important case because if she wins trade unions will all have to re think their approach to women’s rights from a GC perspective (here sex does matter) whatever their adopted institutional belief on GI.

.

Thanks for that overview Hedge.

Does anyone else have the same issue that I have in trying to connect with the Tribunal? I'm testing the system in advance, following their instructions.
I'm on my iPad and iPhone, and using Chrome, as it advises.

I go through all the stages to join the tribunal, but once I get to the test call/my name/Observer page, enter those details and click "Connect" I just get taken to a grey screen. I've been at that stage for over 5 minutes.

This happened in previous tribunals, but fortunately I could connect using DH's computer.

Tonight I got to the same stage on the computer, said I was an Observer, and the grey screen then wanted me to test my video and audio. That didn't work, but without my doing anything other than speak I got, "If you have technical issues, contact your administrator."

As an Observer I don't want my video or audio, so I hope all will be well tomorrow.

Has anyone had success with a iPhone or iPad? I would prefer not to stop DH working for the next 8 days or so.

My access details from the Employment Tribunals Service came though at 16:55. On his live Substack (18:00 ish to 18:45) this evening Michael Foran said his hadn't arrived yet.

I hope his access has come through by now, and HMCTS Scotland were working late to send it all out. I would gladly give up my access to him and rely on his summaries, but of course that's against the judge's instructions.

as an aside I feel very passionate about unions.

From a different perspective as a senior manager I had to run a disciplinary against a lovely person who was completely incompetent.

I had already disciplined her once for putting everyone (service users and staff) at risk, and created a lesser role to try and accommodate her.

alas she failed badly at that, and we had a serious safeguarding incident.

At her disciplinary hearing she had a unison union rep who was bloody marvellous with regard to her conducting a defence.

I am so royally pissed of with the RCN from every perspective, it is not a good thing to have an employee confronted by a disciplinary whatever the allegations right or wrong, left alone without any support.

i feel angry that Sandie was put in that position by her own union. I hope she gets them bang to rights, and in future unions will stop being utter twats.

Without being outing, I am proof that not all unions turn down support for those whom they know have GC beliefs, although my case is not about GC beliefs!

Is there a separate dedicated thread for this hearing?

I think the consensus is here?

Yes, keep it here, it’s easier.

FFS neither Michael Foran nor Tribunal Tweets have been given remote access.

Has Nick Wallis definitely got access to the court room or is he just going up on spec?

This sounds deliberate.

That is good they didn’t abandon you. Maybe if it was in connection to rights that biological males wished to tread upon, and you were resisting this, you’d have been left high and dry. Men wishing to do as they want (irrespective of effect on women and girls rights) seem to be their main concern. That does seem to be them going back to their roots. I remember reading that some predominantly male unions were against women getting equal pay for work of equal value (this was introduced because of joining the EEC, methinks). Yet, here women are again. I suspect ‘Women’s rights’ is not carved in stone for them in the same way ‘the rights of man’ might be. And goodness, so many women who appear to be more than willing to put ‘men’s wants’ first.

Michael Foran's just posted that he has been given one now.

It most certainly does. So much for open justice.

Well, colour me surprised!
All the signs indicated access would be limited. Perhaps we are all the Russian agents Mr Burnham warned about 😱

Nick Wallis posted that he is/was first in the queue, so it would be hard not to let him in the court room. Is Naomi the barrister or is it someone from Christian Concern?

From TT:

We hope to be reporting on Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing from Dundee Employment Tribunal today, 23 September. Peggie is taking action against the RCN, her union, for failure to support her during her employment dispute with Fife Health Board. t.co/1C1YUBATOV

'Hope' as access for observers is limited and a number of the members of Tribunal Tweets have not received remote access details. We have complained this morning to the President of the Scottish Employment Tribunal and the Edinburgh Employment Tribunal.

We hope to resolve all matters and be able to report in our usual manner.

Our coverage of Sandie Peggie’s employment tribunal vs Fife Health Board can be found here:

t.co/kdJshGsBC3
t.co/YXYav70Lxa

Press coverage here:
t.co/92MenzLKR8
Appeal here:
t.co/DAIFWwe1ou

We are a collective of volunteer journalists and are not paid for our work. Please support us by subscribing to our Substack (link in bio above) which funds our legal and digital expenses and some travel costs.

We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a transcript of proceedings.

Employment tribunals in Scotland do not require written witness statements; witnesses give their evidence through examination and cross examination. We have been granted permission to live tweet and Employment Judge Sangster has given the following admonition to witnesses: t.co/8hqoOfBHQE

Abbreviations
SP/C - Sandie Peggie, claimant
RCN/R - Royal College of Nursing, respondent
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for claimant
DH - David Hay, barrister for respondent
J/JS - Employment Judge Melanie Sangster
P1, P2 - Panel members

ET - Employment tribunal
MG - Margaret Gribbon, solicitor for claimant
JF - Jemma Forester, solicitor for respondent
CR - changing room
A&E - A&E department
Fife - Fife Health Board, claimant’s employer

TW - Transwoman (male person claiming female gender identity)
TM - Transman (female person claiming female gender identity)
TWAW - transwomen are women
TMAM - transmen are men

The hearing is scheduled to begin at 10 am.

We hope to report then.

Access update: Several more of our reporters have received access details in response to our complaint.

That is absolutely dreadful and, I agree, looks deliberate. It also goes against the regulations the courts are supposed to work to.

Could any of our wonderful Mumsnet observers try to do note taking?

Tribunal Tweets are in

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/2102670242296271285

I'm WFTCHTJ. As I'm watching as well as copying tweets this time, I'll strictly avoid putting my own comments among the tweets.