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Original poster

A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?

156 replies

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 02/12/2024 14:29

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1863356570991743187?s=46

"This is not how the history went. The majority of the faction that is now known as the ultras turned up after 2020, largely in 2022/23. The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists. That is, what happened is that a group of people who turned up later attacked the core of the original movement who had stood against trans ideology, in the first place, by themselves. And who, quite understandably, were pretty pissed off."

You'd think the fact one of the people involved in the FWS court case was a MNetter, would avoid this selective rewriting of history on who did what & when, as well as why women are still pushing for repeal of the GRA despite all the very learned professionals telling them to stop being so stupid and quiet down on that.

All the early meetings, Venice Allen ones & WPUK, were linked on these very pages, and MNetters made the bulk of the women attending. I remember getting to know people & we all eventually confirmed who we were on MN back then. This attempt to frame women who just won't shut up about repeal of the GRA as Jenny come latelys who had nothing to do with any achievements or wins, when so much of the grassroots movement were women who gathered here, raised consciousness here, organised here & networked here, is just wrong.

I'm getting pretty tired of the narrative being pushed that it's only women who are late to this, who are right wing, bigots, trolls or keyboard warriors who did feck all & have achieved nothing, who keep pushing repeal. I'd much rather the substance of the arguments were tackled instead of the endless high school level rhetoric that follows from someone questioning law fare tactics.

The GRA is bad legislation. It was when it was brought in & remains so now - even more so. Questioning why it is beyond touch is no more an ultra position than refusing to bastardise language or deny reality. But wiping out the place Mumsnet has in the story of how women fought back is a particularly stupid thing to do.

Mumsnet don't even want to be seen as playing the part in this that this place did - they certainly tried to suppress women's language & opinions, and banned lots of women who stood firm. They didn't slope off never to be seen again. They got active & were the backbone of the grassroots movement that's shifted the dial in the U.K.

OP posts:
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IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 18:57

No the original origin was left wing lesbians who were fed up of lesbian groups being invaded.
This issue and meetings, events and campaigns have existed before MN existed.

The original, going back to Women's Liberation, movement was in fact trying to escape both the left and as bad but different, academic feminists, who like socialist feminists presumed to tell women what they should say and think.

But agree that in terms of grassroots activism, most of which was (and still is) set up by working class and Black women and lesbians. ie women's refuges before it became federated.

When we used to have Women's Liberation Marches.

Women in universities and TUs would be having seminars to dispense their superior wisdom ( and trying to recruit) to passive audiences.

Apart from media feminism, which is a whole other mis-direction, academic feminism has been an endless diversion with little lasting benefit.

Fordian · 02/12/2024 18:54

Craftymam · 02/12/2024 15:29

Who are the meanie ultras?

Tried to get my head around that Twitter thread. Couldn’t make head nor tail of it.

I did a stint about a decade ago in the times of Datun and langcleg before passing the baton on. Frustrating as hell but we did break down barriers in dangerous times. It was a chaotic time. I have wondered what a book written about those times would look like. Pure insanity of cotton ceilings to lady brain's to the darkness of murderous park runners and women assaulted being forced to refer to their male attackers as she in court 😵‍💫

It is a hidden time in women’s history. Unless you were there I’m not sure it can ever be recorded or portrayed realistically.

On that Twitter thread I did find this linked article from Paris lees in 2014 https://www.vice.com/en/article/paris-lees-terf-war-twitter-radical-feminists-088/

No wonder we had such a tough time. Trying to talk rationally with a bunch of narcissistic adult children 😭

He seems cross, the bloke in the link!
🤣

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 18:54

@AdventCarols
Replacing one piece of legislation (the Disability Discrimination Act) with a more comprehensive one that goes further (Equality Act 2010)
is very very different from repealing an act and leaving nothing in its place.

The GRA will not vanish in a puff of smoke.
Something will replace it to "protect" the current GRC holders.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 02/12/2024 18:54

Surf2Live · 02/12/2024 14:41

I first heard of MN back in about 2020 as a hotbed of "bigotry and transphobia". I recall vaguely wondering why a chat forum where mums gathered was so bad but didn't think more of it.

So it was definitely on form prior to 2020!

When I first came here and started reading, I was so impressed by the level of clarity on gender ideology and the intelligent discussion. I was intimidated to be fair, it took me a while of lurking and reading before I posted anything.

So glad I found this place.

It used to be an amazing place for intelligent female conversation, probably like the Salons of prior centuries. I have to pick and choose a bit more now.

CandyMaker · 02/12/2024 18:49

IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 18:45

'The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists.'

I have no idea which point in time you are referring to, but the origins of grass roots feminism, was in fact women who had left or been kicked out of left wing groups for thinking women's rights were as important as women's rights.

The point at which we become aware of something is NOT the start of the real history, whether feminism or anything else.

Viewing the world through our own monocular understanding, just reflects who you are!

No the original origin was left wing lesbians who were fed up of lesbian groups being invaded.
This issue and meetings, events and campaigns have existed before MN existed.

Floisme · 02/12/2024 18:49

IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 18:45

'The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists.'

I have no idea which point in time you are referring to, but the origins of grass roots feminism, was in fact women who had left or been kicked out of left wing groups for thinking women's rights were as important as women's rights.

The point at which we become aware of something is NOT the start of the real history, whether feminism or anything else.

Viewing the world through our own monocular understanding, just reflects who you are!

If that's addressed to me I was quoting what JCJ had tweeted.

socialdilemmawhattodo · 02/12/2024 18:46

Just looked back on twitter - my earliest post on these matters was January 2018. Commenting on a post from a US (?) poster, asking if they knew it was happening in the UK too. So yes many of us have been around long before 2022. Couldn't necessarily attend any meetings, so my name might not be known, but that isn't the point. Just waiting for my gay male friends to apologise or my friends with autistic trans children. But not likely.

Slightly embarrassed to see 10 posts later a forwarded tweet from GregG Wallace, me being excited about a new series!!

A bit of rewriting history going on- MN didn't exist before 2020?
IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 18:45

'The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists.'

I have no idea which point in time you are referring to, but the origins of grass roots feminism, was in fact women who had left or been kicked out of left wing groups for thinking women's rights were as important as women's rights.

The point at which we become aware of something is NOT the start of the real history, whether feminism or anything else.

Viewing the world through our own monocular understanding, just reflects who you are!

IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 18:41

Ramblingnamechanger · 02/12/2024 18:15

Radical feminists in the 70s and 80s were dealing with the incursions and were considered extreme for being clear about kindness not being a helpful way to go. It was extraordinary to see the Spartacus thread here which made a lot of women think again. But of course lesbian and radical feminist groups had been undermined for 40 years by then.

The groups may have been undermined but many continued, and still do, to stand up for women's sex based rights.

It is more that twitter being so new (relatively) has no history, and many user lost in that echo chamber think that means nothing happend before they joined twitter.

Floisme · 02/12/2024 18:40

'The bulk of the original grassroots of the movement were left wing feminists.'
On this point, I'd wager JCJ is quite likely correct. When I first found my way to this board, around 2016, I remember the majority of posters - including me - as being Labour/left of centre supporters if not active party members. The way the left has pissed away that support, trust and respect is thoroughly depressing. What's even more depressing is it looks like they're not even aware of it.

RedToothBrush · 02/12/2024 18:38

Hands up who remembers Wes Streeting and Lily Madigan?

MN FWR does.

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 18:35

Rarity or otherwise of repeals is irrelevant. It can be done and should be done for the GRA.

Talkinpeace · 02/12/2024 18:15

I peaked on here when LangCleg was banned - tried to work out what the name changes were about and my head exploded

Many of the "repeal the GRA" crew get cross when its pointed out that laws are very very rarely repealed
and thus the incremental approach is all we really have.

JCJ blocks all those who question her so has no real idea where the discussion is

Ramblingnamechanger · 02/12/2024 18:15

Radical feminists in the 70s and 80s were dealing with the incursions and were considered extreme for being clear about kindness not being a helpful way to go. It was extraordinary to see the Spartacus thread here which made a lot of women think again. But of course lesbian and radical feminist groups had been undermined for 40 years by then.

TempestTost · 02/12/2024 18:09

Yes, that's true. I don't really do Twitter myself, but that must have changed the perception of what was going on when sudden;y you could actually hear all the people who disagreed with you.

AdventCarols · 02/12/2024 18:06

TempestTost · 02/12/2024 17:38

I think it's fair enough to say there are divisions among GC women, with some taking a harder line, or maybe having a different set of first principles, than others.

The idea that these people are "new" is wrong, but I can think of two reasons someone like JCJ might think so.

One is that I think people who take the "ultra" view or tend more in that direction have increased. Many people who first become aware of these issues naturally take a much softer approach, because it takes time to have enough information, and to have thought about it, in order to say, actually, I think the GRC legislation is in fact flawed, or that actually, using preferred pronouns causes more problems than it solves.

So the people who think that way have increased in number, and maybe that gives an illusion of them really appearing only after 2020. I do think that may be when more and more people suddenly started seeing that there was a deep systemic issue.

The second is that I think that people like JCJ have been really upset that one of the effects of GI has been to create a real resurgence in what you might call conservative feminism. And even lots of women on the left are seeing that maybe there was value in that approach to feminist topics, and having defined feminism as belonging to the left weakened and undermined it. Because the conservative women never stopped thinking about women's issues, they just stayed away from feminism as a group.

Now they are becoming more involved, and I wonder if JCJ and her friends might like to be able to label them as the malign influence that created the ultras. They want them out of feminism, that's for sure.

You miss out a third, very important, reason; they were banned from social media. It has only been since Elon took over Twitter that women have been able to reclaim our language on there. Suddenly women have been able to call men men and refer to those who identify as women as ‘he’. Suddenly all those women twisting their words could actually speak the truth again. They were always there, they had just been silenced.

IwantToRetire · 02/12/2024 17:53

I cant help but say, this is exactly why being on twitter is a waste of time.

It has a tiny, tiny number of people who use it.

Most of them seem to be about self promotion.

Why would anyone care what people on there are saying.

And even if for some reason it changed public perception of "history" what matter is what is actually being done.

And by the way long ago, and maybe in parrallel, there was loads on facebook about the growth on trans ideology on facebook (eg Venice Allen, Julia Long) in the early 2000s. And (dont all have a FWR meltdown) mumsnet was thought not to be very political (yes, sorry but true) and it was only when there was it where a mass movement inspired in all areas of the internet and IRL against attempts to amend the GRA, that some feminist activists looked to FWR for information. (Although I know of, and aware of, many feminists who are politically snooty and would never post on FWR - but bet they read it!)

But totally agree this is just a left hand maiden trying to make out that socialist have the true analysis, and should of course lead all us politically incorrect feminists.

As someone said on WPUK's facebook post about their "statement" it was almost like they are saying you aren't good enough socialists for us to bother with, so we are shutting up shop.

Seriously though, all these non entities to 99.9% of women, just aren't worth wasting time on.

DrSpartacular · 02/12/2024 17:41

drspouse · 02/12/2024 16:20

So what we're saying here (words of one syllable please) is that if you are left wing, and think that the definition-of-a-woman case is more easily won than repealing the GRA, is you aren't a real GC feminist?
But people who don't call themselves feminist are proper feminists anyway?
Colour me confused.

No and no.

TempestTost · 02/12/2024 17:38

I think it's fair enough to say there are divisions among GC women, with some taking a harder line, or maybe having a different set of first principles, than others.

The idea that these people are "new" is wrong, but I can think of two reasons someone like JCJ might think so.

One is that I think people who take the "ultra" view or tend more in that direction have increased. Many people who first become aware of these issues naturally take a much softer approach, because it takes time to have enough information, and to have thought about it, in order to say, actually, I think the GRC legislation is in fact flawed, or that actually, using preferred pronouns causes more problems than it solves.

So the people who think that way have increased in number, and maybe that gives an illusion of them really appearing only after 2020. I do think that may be when more and more people suddenly started seeing that there was a deep systemic issue.

The second is that I think that people like JCJ have been really upset that one of the effects of GI has been to create a real resurgence in what you might call conservative feminism. And even lots of women on the left are seeing that maybe there was value in that approach to feminist topics, and having defined feminism as belonging to the left weakened and undermined it. Because the conservative women never stopped thinking about women's issues, they just stayed away from feminism as a group.

Now they are becoming more involved, and I wonder if JCJ and her friends might like to be able to label them as the malign influence that created the ultras. They want them out of feminism, that's for sure.

CandyMaker · 02/12/2024 17:36

This has been an issue going back to the seventies. About 12 years ago I attended an event about the issue with 60 other women. It has been building slowly.
But hoorah! Once the numbers of transgender people become large enough that it impacts straight women as well, they come riding in claiming no one else has ever done anything before.

illinivich · 02/12/2024 17:33

There's a thread from nov 2011. Everyone seems to be aware of a lot of the issues, even saying 'interesting first post' to the op.

On it someones linked to an 'old thread with lots of links'. But that has been deleted since then. And the mentioning of someone being threatened with legal action for a comment.

I'm not saying there were meet ups about it, or organised activism but there was definitely women who understood and were concerned about their rights.

I'm sure there were questions about the EqA when it was introduced, too. But i dont know if it was here or somewhere else, its such a long time ago.

CreepySquareBrackets · 02/12/2024 17:20

Yes I met up with some fabulous Mnetters back in 2018 and we went to A Women's Place meeting, around the Labour Conference. That was at the same time as the famous/infamous poster Adult Human Female by KJK or Posy Parker as she was known back then. I then met other strong and engaged women through that.

I can also claim to have been radicalised by Mumsnet... but that started in 2017 at least...

JemimaTiggywinkles · 02/12/2024 17:15

I'm afraid my problem is that those labelling others as "ultras" are trying to demean women. Some of us think repealing the GRA is a good idea and that it's important to not use preferred pronouns if possible. We shouldn't be denigrated and dismissed just because we have different views.

I have very mixed opinions on JCJ. She's taken a lot of unnecessary flack and in some cases people have been abusive. However, she also dismisses the value of the women working quietly behind the scenes. Schools by school, donation by donation, letter by letter. This work has been important, just as much as the high profile academics.

TWETMIRF · 02/12/2024 17:13

LoobiJee · 02/12/2024 16:28

I’m pretty sure the Tara Hudson case was discussed on here, and that was 2015.

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Him, alongside Danielle Muscato were what brought me to my TWETMIRFiness. I was definitely discussing them on here at the time the petition to move Tara to the wrong sex prison was happening

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