Hilary Cass on Woman's Hour 9.10.24

So are you going to explain the difference between gender nonconforming people and transgender people? Or just give a definition of what makes someone transgender?

It really is astonishing that there are people who think that it's better for troubled and confused children to have these extreme body modifications in order to superficially resemble the opposite sex, rather than have support to accept their bodies as they are and accept that it's not possible to change sex.

But I suppose if you have completely swallowed the idea that everyone has a 'gender identity' which is unrelated to their sex, and that people can literally be born in the wrong sex body for their gendered soul, then you're not going to think very rationally about these things.

The framing was repellent, and I disagree with the deeply transphobic sentiment and flawed premises of those questions. You simply aren’t worth engaging with.

Those weren't comments, they were questions. To which you apparently have no answers.

This systematic review and literature review was designed to provide a framework to understand regret after gender affirming surgery in the context of other elective medically necessary surgeries as well as major life decisions. Unfortunately, some people seek to limit access to gender-affirming services, most vehemently gender-affirming surgery, and use post-operative regret as reason that care should be denied to all patients. This over-reaching approach erases patient autonomy and does not

Absolutely no bias there.

This is the thing. We are constantly told that the brutality of these treatments are all for the good of these children and young people, based on no evidence to show this long term improvement.

@GillBeck l did find another site with a bit more detail about the study that is not paywalled

A systematic review of patient regret after surgery- A common phenomenon in many specialties but rare within gender-affirmation surgery - ScienceDirect

Methods
Following the Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-analyses (PRISMA) 2020 guidelines, a comprehensive research of several databases from each database's inception to July 12, 2023, was conducted. The databases included PubMed, Scopus, and Web of Science. Search terms were “regret” in addition to the following operations: breast reconstruction, breast reduction, breast augmentation, mastopexy, facelift, neck lift, abdominoplasty, blepharoplasty, brow lift, rhinoplasty,

I should also add the above studies appear to be of adults who had treatment as adults.

Behind a paywall, but looking at the references:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37556147/
n=139, 40.9% non response rate, ‘long term’ for responders is an average of just 3.6 years for responders and 4.6 for non responders. We cannot rule out all the non-responders regretting their decision as we have no data on them.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/
Exactly as I stated in my pp - a review of patient files with regret defined purely as patients who had returned to the clinic stating regret even though a gonedectomy is clearly irreversible so pretty much no value in them doing so.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_lookup?doi=10.21037%2Fatm-20-6204
A survey of 154 surgeons at WPATH and USPATH who carried out the operations prior to 2017, 51 responded. On average they seem to have carried out over 500 surgeries each so big money for them. Regret was measured purely by them reporting that patients had come back to the surgeon who had mutilated them and requested a reversal. It also does not seem to have involved a systematic study of records of even that.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909023/
Did not consider regret, Self-selecting sample of those identifying as transgender (ie not detransitioners). No distinction between surgeries. Follow-up length not reported. Comparison between those who ‘endorsed’ surgery and had had some surgery and those who ‘endorsed’ surgery but had not had it.

Most of the comparison studies were breast reconstruction following cancer treatment or prophylactic removal due to cancer risk.

There is a word that describes a certain pp on this thread. That word is ghoul. I do expect to be deleted.

No one would use that as an argument against anyone getting surgery.

I would use it as an argument against unnecessary surgery.

Is there no part of you that can imagine that children who take puberty blockers to arrest their maturity, are therefore still their own nine or ten or eleven year old selves 15 years later?

I think this exchange sums the whole sorry mess up beautifully TBH.

i want my trans-identifying kid to live a long and healthy life free of pain. Don’t mind what they wear or how they see themselves. I Don’t want them to take life shortening/limiting drugs that have not been shown to alleviate the issues they think they are trying to fix.

how the fuck are WE the Transphobics instigating a Trans-genocide.

It’s really not hard to find, but here is one:

www.americanjournalofsurgery.com/article/S0002-9610(24)00238-1/abstract

Please link evidence

What a repellent comment.

No, follow up studies which asked people about surgical regret. I don’t understand why you are so desperate for this not to be true.

And then there is the American Society of Plastic Surgeons pointing out the lack of evidence for these mutilating surgeries, which given their financial interest would be rather surprising unless they are concerned about court cases coming their way.

https://donoharmmedicine.org/2024/08/14/asps-gender-affirming-care-evidence-consensus/

This population have a suicide rate many times higher than the rest of the population which rather belies your suggestion (I am presuming based on the study that looked at how many people returned to the surgeon who mutilated them asked for reversal of permanent surgery and had this recorded in clinic notes).

There are plenty of gender non-conforming people - far more than there are transgender people

Are you going to explain what the difference is @DadJoke?

'Transgender people' are gender non-conforming people plus added body hatred?

Some 'transgender people' aren't gender non-conforming at all, but have an extreme cross-dressing fetish?

Or something else?

That is good to know. Thank you. And I apologise.

I think I now know who it was and it was another very heavily invested male poster who said this.

ere is Dr Az Hazeem saying he had about 26% of his patients regretted transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

He said 26 per cent of his patients at the Tavistock and Portman regretted transitioning.

And Genspect has estimated it could be even higher.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5181433-trans-regret-rate-could-be-33

For treatments that have no proof that they work to even improve mental health in the long term.

How dismissive can one be of the issues with these drugs.

Can you post some statistical evidence for your claims?

You are.

It’s sad that a tiny proportion of people experience surgical regret but for gender affirmative surgery it’s very low indeed - a model for many other procedures. No one would use that as an argument against anyone getting surgery.