Helen Lewis interview

Having thought about it for another five minutes, for Helen Lewis to be invited on Buxton’s podcast she must be considered pretty anodyne by people like him because there’s no way Buxton would interview a woman who properly challenges his views on women’s rights. She can’t have pushed him out of his comfort zone with her views on the matter or her framing of other women involved in the debate.

I agree with your analysis @JoodyBlueToo

Well I do support the right for her to say what she likes. And for others to support it. And so I appreciate your response and engagement with me.

For myself, what I hear is, those women over there are bad, but I'm not like them.

I think I almost feel a "moderate" voice really undermines the women who are prepared to fight for women's rights. Because there is really no half way position. We need reality based language with which to define reality based legal protections.

I think setting oneself up as "moderate" almost by definition says that those who expect more real support from our legislators and leaders are in some way extreme. But they aren't are they? They are courageously telling the truth.

I don't really want to criticise HL, it doesn't feel like a supportive thing to do to another woman. But if she is going to speak on the subject, I wish she would do it full justice. Articulate all the arguments even if she then disagrees with them.

The pronouns for example. There are strong arguments against using them. But she simply says it is "rude" not to. It doesn't do justice to those putting themselves at risk by making the strong argument. Am I making any sense?

@JoodyBlueToo i guess my only disagreement is that she’s always only been very moderately GC, as she says herself. I didn’t particularly like her both sides-ing, but it makes her a safe voice to listen to.

She’s also clearly more comfortable playing the dispassionate observer rather than the active participant.

That's a good way of putting it and why I think her approach is useful. She is very good at giving an informed and accessible overview.

@GhostOrchid I think dispassionate observer is an understandable position to want to take. Except she isn't. She is clearly disassociating from women who are more hard line and in doing this publicly, it acts as a criticism. Moreover people can then say - look at this nice middle of the road lady, being reasonable. It givers permission to those who want to paint women who have no truck with trans as bigots.

It IS taking a side.

I don’t think she’s backtracking. She was an important early voice, it’s just the debate has moved on and she hasn’t moved with it. She’s also clearly more comfortable playing the dispassionate observer rather than the active participant.

I felt that podcast should be called Teen Talk but I know I'm not the target demographic. Still, the inanity of the intro was quite something.

Anyway HL says she said what she had to say on the GC issues way back when and long before JKR got involved. So she doesn't need to keep talking about it. Except of course, having said anything, she will always be asked now to say something.

So, I think she is trying to backtrack.

What she's saying now is that there is an extreme fringe who want to use plain language and look again at the GRA. But that's not where she is! I guess she means KJK. Though she had a good go at JKR for not being "nice".

I feel she is backtracking. She dipped her foot in the water, decided it was too cold, and backed off. Maybe she'll return in the summer when the water is warmer.

Meanwhile, though, it would be nice of her not to trash women wanting to keep their language and tell it how it is. But hey ho!

I like to keep abreast of the voices on this issue. So I do listen to a lot of them. Some times though, I do feel that was not a good use of my time. This was such an instance.

An interesting listen and I think significant that the discussion was had. I think Helen Lewis is still trying to ride two horses and there are some contradictions in her position that she doesn’t quite want to confront. Buxton got on my nerves with his constant “Be Kind-ing”. It would have been good to have had them interrogate the aetiology of transgender identity a bit. It felt quite surface-level and Guardian dinner party-ish.

That's good to know @Brewdug Sounds as if things are shifting, people are listening who might not have done a couple of years ago.

After listening to the whole thing I was pleasantly surprised. That such a big chunk of the chat was dedicated to the issue at all was something for Buxton - it's a mainstream, very popular be kind light entertainment podcast after all. He could have glossed over it but listened and asked questions, and while there was a bit of 'some people'ing (oh God just say women, you mean women Adam) it was not as sneery as I expected. I think it was a pretty useful conversation, all in all.

Have just listened to the intro, not the full chat yet, and didn't think Buxton was excusing himself more than almost hopefully actually realising his male privilege - "people directly affected" etc. Very fluffy, but not as bad as feared.

Theroux did an interview with Germaine Greer recently, and also did one of those wanky "don't hate me" apologies for what she said, and basically told people she would be dead soon.

Let's face it, they are pretty much all interchangeable...

Ah, Ronson not Theroux* of course, thanks Appleblossom.*

we need everyone

Yes we do need everyone, so I wouldn't mind Lewis debating the downside of what Rowling tweeted if she credited the powerful reasons why Rowling needed to make those tweets. Everyone Rowling named was a significant example that other women need to raise, if not about that individual then about someone similar, when they raise women's prisons, toilets, sports, prizes, safeguarding..... All the things that Lewis feels free to take for granted should be for women only, but other women have learned the hard way that they're not and need to be able to say so, with examples of just how much they're not.

(Well nearly everyone Rowling named. Maybe not India Willoughby. Willoughby is not significant just irritating.)

I don't mind debate as long as she knows what she's talking about. Uninformed debate is frustrating.

Adam Buxton & John Ronson were wilfully dismissive & unpleasant about women's rights when they discussed the trans issue a few years ago. Also so unkind & disloyal to Glinner who had once been a friend & colleague. I stopped listening to Buxton's podcast because of it. Adam Buxton is obviously recognising that the mood music has changed & wants to reposition himself & is using Helen to do so. His mealy mouthed arse covering intro shows how spineless he is though. He obviously thinks women should only fight for their rights & freedoms if they can be sweet & kind whilst doing so.

I nearly swiped this one out of my feed straight away as I subscribe to far too many podcasts to actually get through; I know he's had Helen on before and really don't have the time for him him anymore. Saw 'culture wars' in the blurb and wondered what might come up so kept hold of it. I'll have to listen now.

I like Helen and think her clarity explaining these issues is valuable. She was good on the Witch Trials podcast. Buxton has of course had Contrapoints on this year too and all that 'mutual friend' haw-hawing mocking Glinner (with Theroux was it?) was just awful. I wish he could get it. He is a massive disappointment.

This article, on the recent problems with UK Liberalism in trying to protect a liberal society, sums up commentators like Helen Lewis on this issue for me:
https://ugc-assets.mumsnet.com/images/202410/AVBwyCayp8S7KptPdhkTllQigWF19WH48v7OYXdV.jpg

The article is taken from this thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5180604-why-i-read-the-ft?reply=138814783

Well said!

We don't just need hardliners - we need everyone and we need debate

I went to school with Helen Lewis - she's always been highly intelligent.