Ethics of phalloplasty on female patients.

TBF the NHS were forced into providing MtF genital surgery by the courts so they are probably equally obliged to provide it for FtM otherwise it would be sex discrimination.

This is depressing. I did not know about the court case. Tomorrow is my day off and I was planning to write to Wes Streeting and my MP to ask that masculinising genital surgery be banned, or at least not funded by the NHS.

Obviously I'd also like to see other gender surgeries banned, including mastectomies on young women and mtf surgeries on young men (see Ritchie Heron) but I think there's less chance of getting them banned.

Is it even worth the effort of writing that letter? Well I suppose if it brings knowledge around the life and death of Griffin and the insane harms of this surgery at the very least it may harden his resolve to keep young people off puberty blockers and prevent them taking that first step on the medical/surgical pathway.

It just sickens me that the NHS is funding this, and obviously it's not just about money and harms to young people, it's about our health service that is so stretched, hundreds of thousands of people on waiting lists for important surgeries and meanwhile precious resources are being expended on creating a class of lifelong medical patients who are destined to have many complications in the future, and if they sue that will be an additional expense to the NHS.

Yep again.

A friend of mine was waiting for a skin cancer referral while the NHS was performing double mastectomies. She ended up waiting for so long that rather than a simple excision she had to have a skin graft.

Priorities, people, priorities.

This is the genital surgery court case (from 1999):

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_West_Lancashire_Health_Authority_v_A,_D_and_G

Yep.

From the NHS England Service Specification document: https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/NHS-England-Service-Specification-for-Specialised-Gender-Dysphoria-Services-Surgical-v4.pdf

Bonkers, innit?

TBF the NHS were forced into providing MtF genital surgery by the courts so they are probably equally obliged to provide it for FtM otherwise it would be sex discrimination.

Metoidioplasty on the NHS?

So we currently have an NHS which barely addresses standard female care, see unhappy-and-traumatic-birth-and-post-birth threads to the right, see cannot-get-an-endometriosis-diagnosis-for-anything-upto-11-years to the left, see I'm-losing-my-mind-due-to-low-hormones-and-can't-get-HRT-or-thyroid-hormone above, and as we're talking about body modifications, see my-huge-breasts-are-causing-me-crippling-back-pain-but-I-can't-get-them-reduced-on-the-NHS below.

But the NHS has money for surgeries that pander to purely self-determined mental frameworks of oneself that don't have any firm basis in reality?

Lol. Ok.

I find it really upsetting that Griffin's friends and so-called community, a very online set of people, have nothing to say about Griffin's painful life and sad death. Quite few of the alleged evil Nazi terfs at KF have posted about how sad and angry they feel about the pain and suffering and the needless early death of a young woman, while Griffin's friends are posting encouragement to more young women to go down the same path. Griffin will be memoryholed because her story doesn't fit the lies being sold to other vulnerable people.

Like the evil Nazi kiwi farmers, I'm mad at the internet today.

Yes, 2 surgical teams, both based in London hospitals (Chelsea & Westminster and New Victoria).

I believe a new category defining the mental dysfunction of the ‘trans-identified’ needs to be formulated. I call this ‘Trans-Type Psychosis’ (TTP).

I agree there is a lot of mental illness involved, and many people who are already mentally ill are attracted to gender ideology because it promises a “deletion” of the old self and a shiny new “birth”, complete with praise and adulation and a special supportive community.

But it’s unlike other mental illness in that it’s being confirmed and asserted back at people everywhere they look - by their school, doctors, books, news outlets, TV shows, workplaces. How can a young person who’s fallen into this disentangle reality from all those messages especially if they’re already weakened by PBs? It must be so incredibly hard to realise something is very wrong as Griffin clearly did, but to not be able to get clear answers or a hold on why their life has become such a nightmare when it was supposed to be about some kind of fabulous step into “joy” and “truth”?

I feel so upset for Griffin. The Kafkaesque sense of confusion and not being heard, and spiralling into feeling worse and worse with so little help forthcoming is so awful to read. And anyone who could have said “it’s ok to be a GNC girl/woman, it’s OK to feel confused as you grow up, it will get better” is painted as evil and a bigot and ostracised from these girls’ lives.

Are metoidioplastys being performed via the NHS?

It shows how male-driven this movement is. Everything is about the penis, even fake, rotting ones. Mentally ill girls and young women desperately trying to escape being female (and guess what makes them so fearful and loathing of the female condition - yep, men. The predators.) And what happens to these victims of butchery? They're made stalking horses for the predators driving it all, put into contact with the worst of men, the ones who can read "vulnerable and at risk" a mile off. And when they're no longer useful, they're discarded, forgotten.

Liars and butchers,every last one of them.

This is not healthcare. The people carrying it out might be classed as healthcare practitioners but these experimental cosmetic surgeries do not promote health.

They create damage physically and mentally and I doubt the ethics of anyone carrying them out - that goes for most cosmetic surgery these days.

Plastic surgery is a relatively new field, mostly born of attempts to improve outcomes for people with horrific trauma wounds from WWI/2.

Modern cosmetic surgery is a greedy grasping field that preys on people's insecurities and fears and does more harm than good.

There are ethics boards for research - but are there ethics boards for procedures that are being carried out experimentally?

...in the Texas Children's Hospital [the largest children's hospital in the world] who announced they had stopped all this but just carried on...the latest whistleblower is alleging how, to get around medical insurance, they are registering kids as the incorrect sex, and then stating they have low hormone levels and thus the hormones will be to correct a low level so bingo - it will be paid for on the medical insurance.

See also Australia and getting round funding and other rules.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5106375-women-and-girls-prescribed-t-for-testicular-disorder

The disorder in question is, of course, not possessing any testicles due to being female.

Thanks to everyone who has posted links in answer to my question. I'll have a read of the links today - I was out last night.

@FreedomDogs if you are familiar with the literature, do you know of any studies on the general health of transmen after 5-10-20 years who first given hormones as young adults?

Or anyone else?

And sorry, just to add.

If a person really does believe there is no issue with bone density with ‘gender affirming care’ for female people that includes puberty blockers, then does that mean that person only ever expects that female person to go on to have testosterone as a treatment?

What about those who desist / detransition before testosterone? And what about those who only take testosterone for short time before detransitioning?

It seems even more dismissive of the needs of desisters and detransitioners than usual, to dismiss their potential bone health issues.

You are right to be concerned about the bone density dismissiveness. For the bone density to recover in a female person, from my reading of the studies, it requires a female to be treated with testosterone after puberty blockers.

And yes, so much of this information is lost in historical medical data.

We know that girls treated with Lupron over a certain amount of time develop significant bone density, joint and connective tissue health conditions that are life limiting and may be life shortening. And we know that the impact on an adult female body of Lupron can also lead to major health issues from previous case histories.

The bone density study I read was clear that in female patients, it was only after testosterone was used that bone density started to recover, if it did indeed reach healthy density. I think anyone declaring bone density for female patients as a non-issue would be spreading misinformation.

Ethics went out the window from day 1.

When they decided to give puberty blockers to people in the 90s, they specifically gave an age range to the ethics committee [after being denied by other ethics committees] and then ignored the range, and specifically gave an end point of 16 for collecting data as persumably, most kids would have finished puberty by then. Knowing that the effects could be discovered years down the line. Oh and now the people involved are running the institutions so if you think they are going to have a sudden change of heart, think again.

Only 1 adult clinic would give their longer range [such as it is] data to Dr Cass, presumably because they had so little of it, it wasn't worth the paper it was crayoned on.

And here's another latest Ethical consideration...in the Texas Children's Hospital [the largest children's hospital in the world] who announced they had stopped all this but just carried on...the latest whistleblower is alleging how, to get around medical insurance, they are registering kids as the incorrect sex, and then stating they have low hormone levels and thus the hormoes will be to correct a low level so bingo - it will be paid for on the medical insurance. So that's not gonna mess with data in any way, AMIRITE?

The sheer audacity to come onto Mumsnet, where many of us have or had crippling osteoporosis from early or even just normal menopause, telling us how girls not getting the correct hormones 20-30 years earlier has no effect on bone density is breathtaking.

I would like to see a ban, too, but I do think it is actually feasible. They eventually banned lobotomies on the grounds that they were inhumane, I see no reason why - as the horror of cases like locked in syndrome and this poor trans mans death (and the stories of the medical journeys of people like Scott Nugent) become more well-known - there shouldn’t be a move to completely prohibit them.

The PBs thus switched off, or at best, severely interfered with the development of Griffin’s higher-level cognitive skills. She was therefore mentally incapable of fully understanding the consequences and implications of the later 'gender affirming' procedures to which she nominally consented.

This. Performing unnecessary, highly physically damaging, surgery on young people who are mentally ill and who have had their cognitive function impaired such that they cannot properly understand, and therefore properly consent. This should never happen in a civilised society, let alone be celebrated.

Dr P is writing at length about all this:

x.com/psychgirl211/status/1825786137442484308?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Believing oneself to be born in the 'wrong body' is, by definition, a sign of mental illness.

As I explain here, 'Gender Dysphoria' has entered our symptom pool and, instead of being treated appropriately (or just ignored), it is being exploited and monetised at the expense of children and other vulnerable people.

‘Why Gender Dysphoria is a lie’:
x.com/Psychgirl211/s…

In one of her Instagram posts, Griffin spoke of having "bottom dysphoria".

This makes no more sense than claiming to have foot or arm dysphoria.

No surgeon with an ounce of ethics would be willing to cut off those body parts.

So, why were Griffin's healthy uterus and breasts deemed to be no more than medical waste, to be removed and burned in an incinerator?

Why did a civilised society allow this to happen to a young girl who, when she began on ‘GAC’ already had multiple psychosocial (and probably developmental) issues?

From her posts, by the end of her life, Griffin was in the grip of a raging psychosis.

And, as Chica says here, it must be automatically assumed that anyone giving 'consent' to these unnecessary, dangerous and experimental cosmetic surgeries is experiencing a 'disturbance in the balance of their mind'.

In other words, they are displaying symptoms of psychosis/thought disorder, such as:

Difficulty thinking: (concentrating, putting thoughts together, reasoning).
Delusions: (false, fixed beliefs).
Behavioural changes; (bizarre or unusual behaviour, social withdrawal or isolation)
Mood changes; (depression, feeling empty, sad, worthless, mania).
Other changes; (sleep, appetite, weight, managing emotions).

(And, for all we know, these individuals are also experiencing the other classic symptoms of psychosis, such as hallucinations and thought blocking).

I believe a new category defining the mental dysfunction of the ‘trans-identified’ needs to be formulated. I call this ‘Trans-Type Psychosis’ (TTP).

Griffin's case is also all the more egregious because she was given PBs at age 13. This is just at the age when her brain would have begun synaptogenesis and myelination, two essential neurobiological processes. (I am writing an article on the ‘Myth of the Trans Child’, where I explain these processes in detail. Keep an eye out for it).

The PBs thus switched off, or at best, severely interfered with the development of Griffin’s higher-level cognitive skills. She was therefore mentally incapable of fully understanding the consequences and implications of the later 'gender affirming' procedures to which she nominally consented.

(Impact of PBs on executive functioning):
x.com/Psychgirl211/s…

This case should go down in medical and legal history. It represents the nadir of an ideology run amok and exposes a medical profession that is incapable of regulating itself and of curtailing the actions of individuals such as Dr Oren Ganor.

Transgender ‘healthcare’ does not produce joy, or self actualisation. It instead represents a profound contempt for the human body and leads only to the immiseration of all involved, (except of course the doctors raking in huge sums from these abominable surgeries).

Transgender ‘healthcare’ is a crime against humanity.

It should be banned, in all of its forms, and for all age groups.

Because mentally well people simply have no desire to disrupt the normal functioning of their healthy bodies.

Those who embark on surgeries to deform and mutilate their bodies do not have ‘Gender Dysphoria’.

They are experiencing Trans-Type Psychosis (TTP) and they need to be protected.

Protected from themselves. And from doctors like Oren Ganor.

It’s what a civilised society would do.

I think there's a shocking lack of knowledge about the human body/biology generally among most people especially the young who don't seem to get taught any of that at school any more. David Lammy being a prime example. With regard to phalloplasty I suspect the young women who seek this have never seen a real penis, or interacted with one in real life (most are presumably lesbians and those who perhaps are heterosexual, and then claim to be gay men after they transition, still seem to know nothing about men), so I think they genuinely don't understand the first thing about the workings of a penis apart from standing to pee! They also, of course, know nothing about urology and the risks to the whole urinary system that this sort of surgery presents.

I find it hard to believe that any heterosexual woman would be sexually interested in one of these flesh rolls and of course they can't work like a penis so even for the ones whose appendages heal, it is necessary to have some sort of inflation device. The odd one might be simulating some form of sexual act with the occasional person whose sexuality is so mixed up they go for it but it's not a viable option in general. I doubt any of this is explained to them. Instead they get gaslighting and brainwashing and somehow convinced this is what they need to do to "be a man". 🤷‍♀️

Exactly!

Cutting bits off healthy bodies in order to make fake knobs which behave and work nothing at all like the real thing for cosmetic purposes is Mengele-level batshit.

Yes! I genuinely couldn’t make sense of it when I first found out about it. Just… why? It can’t possibly make any female person really feel like their “true self”, if that self is supposed to be a man. It doesn’t look or function like a penis and causes so many horrible problems. The available procedures aren’t fit for purpose, and the reality is being suppressed because it’s so hard for people going through this to admit it isn’t the best thing ever and “trans joy”.