Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Guardian on Angela Carini - 'An Uncomfortable watch...'

53 replies

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 17:42

Well well well Kath Viner...
This is extraordinary the Guardian is turning, slowly, but turning. Its not the Observer either people, but the G, the paper that has actively promoted lies for 6 years on this topic, done no reporting and suppressed reporters who try.
Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore hats off to you, OJ must be delighted ...😂https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/02/boxing-olympics-lisa-nandy-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting

‘An uncomfortable watch’: UK minister speaks on Olympic boxing gender row

Lisa Nandy, the UK culture secretary, has described the Olympic boxing bout featuring Imane Khelif of Algeria as “an incredibly uncomfortable watch”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/02/boxing-olympics-lisa-nandy-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Thread gallery
6
murasaki · 02/08/2024 22:32

To extrapolate from my previous post re cheating for ages and therefore not being able to put procedures in place to stop it, we should have no drugs tests at all.....

Hello EPO, testosterone, steroids etc. So the enhanced games that has been mooted recently. At least that would be honest.

Frenchsplit · 02/08/2024 22:27

I said this on another thread, but it’s intriguing me.

It’s funny how this topic has turned positions on their heads. With supporters of this person being a woman citing them being assigned female at birth, and raised as a woman, as proof of their sex.

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 22:24

murasaki · 02/08/2024 22:00

So because we allowed cheating for ages, no one is allowed to put procedures in place to stop it.

Indeed. From the IBA statement
" While IBA remains committed to ensuring competitive fairness in all of our events, we express concern over the inconsistent application of eligibility criteria by other sporting organizations, including those overseeing the Olympic Games. The IOC’s differing regulations on these matters, in which IBA is not involved, raise serious questions about both competitive fairness and athletes’ safety.

For clarification on why the IOC permits athletes with competitive advantages to compete in their events, we urge interested parties to seek answers directly from the IOC.
Yours sincerely,
International Boxing Association"

OP posts:
StandingSideBySide · 02/08/2024 22:21

terryleather · 02/08/2024 18:33

This.

I'm sick of hearing about inclusion in the context of elite sport - by it's very nature it's not inclusive otherwise it would just be every rando of whatever sex, weight, age etc rocking up and take part rendering the whole thing meaningless.

Like the meaningless womens 800m at the Rio Olympics.

The Guardian on Angela Carini - 'An Uncomfortable watch...'
lonelywater · 02/08/2024 22:01

DiamondGoldandSilver · 02/08/2024 17:56

I don’t understand why the IOC’s spokesperson said they will not return to the bad days of sex testing. Surely sex testing would resolve this issue. What would be wrong with that?

what's wrong with that? it stops self id dead in its tracks if biological reality is the ultimate backstop. Cue wailing and gnashing of TRA teeth. cannot have that now, can we?

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 22:00

PaminaMozart · 02/08/2024 21:54

Things are escalating:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/02/boxing-olympics-lisa-nandy-imane-khelif-lin-yu-ting

The Hungarian Boxing Association has protested to the International Olympic Committee over its decision to allow the Algerian fighter Imane Khelif to compete at Paris 2024, before her quarter-final bout with one of its boxers.

That article starts ok but then descends into batshittery.

murasaki · 02/08/2024 22:00

PaminaMozart · 02/08/2024 21:58

The IOC is digging their heels in regarding the IBA decision to change the gender rules:

“The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure – especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.”

So because we allowed cheating for ages, no one is allowed to put procedures in place to stop it.

PaminaMozart · 02/08/2024 21:58

The IOC is digging their heels in regarding the IBA decision to change the gender rules:

“The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure – especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.”

murasaki · 02/08/2024 21:58

I dislike Orban as much as the next person, but knew Hungary would go into bat about this.

It's the 'even a stopped clock is right twice a day' thing here with him

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 21:50

I love their statement
"For clarification on why the IOC permits athletes with competitive advantages to compete in their events, we urge interested parties to seek answers directly from the IOC.
Yours sincerely,
International Boxing Association"😂

OP posts:
Zita60 · 02/08/2024 21:42

miri1985 · 02/08/2024 17:52

"Adams cast doubt on the testing carried out by the IBA. “We don’t know if the test was accurate. We don’t know whether we should believe the test,” he said, adding that there was “a difference between the test taking place and whether we accept the accuracy or even the protocol of the test”.

Addressing the issue of sex testing, Adams said “it’s impossible to have a sex test that is comprehensive and works and it’s not discriminatory.” He added: “I don’t think anyone wants to see a return to some of the scenes. I know some of those athletes who underwent sex tests in their teens. It was pretty disgraceful. And luckily, that is behind us.”"

Of course sex testing is going to be discriminatory, thats the whole point. I hate that his whole attitude is we don't know what the tests say but we'd prefer not to carry out any of our own.

Why can't the IOC explain why there are sex/testosterone rules for some of the athletics but not the combat sports, surely one is potentially much more detrimental to another persons health if competitions are unfair

The IBA said they had tested the boxers twice, in 2022 and 2023.

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Statement made by the International Boxing Association regarding Athletes Disqualifications in World Boxing Championships 2023

As stated, the International Boxing Association (IBA) feels it appropriate at this prevalent time, to address recent media statements regarding those athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif, particularly regarding their participation in the Paris Olympic...

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023

WickedSerious · 02/08/2024 21:38

FuzzyPuffling · 02/08/2024 17:56

They'll be proved wrong. Aw diddums.

Yeah and too many men will be caught out.

LoobiJee · 02/08/2024 21:35

“Lisa Nandy, the UK culture secretary, described the Olympic boxing bout between Khelif and Carini as “an incredibly uncomfortable watch”.
^^
acknowledged concern about “getting the balance right” in boxing and other sports when it comes to female competitors. But she said the “biological facts are far more complicated than is being presented on social media and in some of the speculation”.
^^
She said: “I think as sporting bodies try to get that balance between inclusion, fairness and safety, there is a role for government to make sure that they’ve got the guidance and the framework and the support to make those decisions correctly and it’s something that I’ll be talking to sporting bodies about over the coming weeks and months.”

So has Nandy changed her position now? I thought Nandy said that sporting bodies could be trusted to to use their judgement and leaving them to so so was rhe right approach a couple of weeks back?

Hatfullofwillow · 02/08/2024 21:26

Bannedontherun · 02/08/2024 21:09

@Hatfullofwillow so it is said that they were born female and have lived as a female how do we know if that is true?

I've no idea about the other boxer, but Khelif has documentation that shows she was born a girl and is socially & legally recognised by Algeria as a woman.

What we don't "know" is what the IAB test was that she failed and what it showed. We have Umar Kevlev who told Russian news agency Tass that it proved she had xy chromosomes. That's it.

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 21:25

Hatfullofwillow · 02/08/2024 21:00

I haven't seen what form her reported dsd took, but to label someone who was a girl at birth and who has lived as a girl and a woman a cheat seems unnecessarily vindictive.

This isn't about someone clearly born Male then transitioning and demanding to compete in women's sports.

He is male.
Even if he didn't know it when he started boxing, he has known since the 2022 world championship when he failed a sex verification test the first time.
He failed again the following year.
He started an appeal at CAS but withdrew it and accepted the results of the test - XY chromosomes. This acceptance made the result legally binding.

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 21:22

From the IBA on the IOC

" For clarification on why the IOC permits athletes with competitive advantages to compete in their events, we urge interested parties to seek answers directly from the IOC. "
https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Thanks to the poster who alerted me to this

Statement made by the International Boxing Association regarding Athletes Disqualifications in World Boxing Championships 2023

As stated, the International Boxing Association (IBA) feels it appropriate at this prevalent time, to address recent media statements regarding those athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif, particularly regarding their participation in the Paris Olympic...

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023

OP posts:
Bannedontherun · 02/08/2024 21:09

@Hatfullofwillow so it is said that they were born female and have lived as a female how do we know if that is true?

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 21:04

Hatfullofwillow · 02/08/2024 21:00

I haven't seen what form her reported dsd took, but to label someone who was a girl at birth and who has lived as a girl and a woman a cheat seems unnecessarily vindictive.

This isn't about someone clearly born Male then transitioning and demanding to compete in women's sports.

It's unlikely that a VSD wasn't recognised during adolescence when there was no sign of menarche etc. but puberty was underway.

Delphinium20 · 02/08/2024 21:02

I have eyes. I watched the fight. Khelif is a man.

Hatfullofwillow · 02/08/2024 21:00

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 20:07

"Had modest sucess ' being the operative phrase. Shades of Lia Thomas and every other gender cheat.

I haven't seen what form her reported dsd took, but to label someone who was a girl at birth and who has lived as a girl and a woman a cheat seems unnecessarily vindictive.

This isn't about someone clearly born Male then transitioning and demanding to compete in women's sports.

Omlettes · 02/08/2024 20:12

Has anyone seen any footage for this fight?
Are they hiding it?
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5133473-no-live-footage-of-lin-yu-ting-vs-sitora-turdibekova?reply=137252223

OP posts:
Omlettes · 02/08/2024 20:07

"Had modest sucess ' being the operative phrase. Shades of Lia Thomas and every other gender cheat.

OP posts:
Omlettes · 02/08/2024 20:02

AighVie · 02/08/2024 18:41

Now thats very interesting....
thank you. All pigs at the trough apparently.

OP posts:
carrotsfortabbits · 02/08/2024 19:52

So much BS if they're going to be inclusive they need to give us all gold medals. Fucking idiots