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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini

480 replies

Omlettes · 01/08/2024 17:33

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

OP posts:
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29
LaeralSilverhand · 02/08/2024 23:11

Fukuraptor · 02/08/2024 18:18

As an aside, I am kind of dumbfounded that the IOC don't test for testosterone for boxers, given the history of doping in other sports. Sounds like it's open season for cheats of both sexes.

Of course they test for testosterone and many other performance enhancing drugs. What makes you think they don’t? (Although it’s actually WADA rather than the IOC who do the testing).

WeightLossGoal2024 · 02/08/2024 22:38

Fully recommend this podcast episode for a good summary of why this is wrong and why the IOC made this decision.... they care more about inclusivity than safety

I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
sadabouti · 02/08/2024 21:42

@TempestTost I see you swerved my questions. I'm going to assume that you are a trans woman and that's why you persist with the idea that sex is not immutable or driven by chromosomes alone. If I am correct in this assumption, we are in fact two men talking to each other. And not a man (me) talking to a woman (you). This matters if you are going to argue that my views count for less than yours because I am male and you are female. If you are a trans woman, you may not be lying consciously, but your assumption of a right to speak for women would be misrepresentation of the truth.

I don't claim to speak for woman or men, just myself.

I'll frame it differently to try to get to the facts so others can judge for themselves. Are you a woman who was assigned male at birth? Or are you a Cis Woman.

MaidOfAle · 02/08/2024 21:25

We are talking in this thread about males with disorders of sexual development who are cheating by pretending to be women even though they know they have XY chromosomes. These two boxers are not trans.

DianaAntoniaJasmine · 02/08/2024 21:21

Omlettes · 01/08/2024 17:33

Words fail I'm so angry, but by god she is brave.
Personally I feel sick and 'triggered' it reminds me of the first time an ex punched me on the thigh, I couldnt get over how much it hurt or the enormous bruise from knee to hip. I know there is a general thread on this but its so important it deserves multiple threads. I hope Carinis decision to stop the fight so very publicly makes a difference.
Meanwhile Khelif crows “I am here for gold,” “I will fight anybody, I will fight them all.”
Not the REMOTEST hint of sportsmanlike conduct.
I vote we write to VIiner en masse and lay some responsibility at her feet.
Actually EVERY editor, The Indy NYT WAPO etc
I am incandescent

www.facebook.com/share/p/BXiCyM3n8CYxNLpR/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 21:15

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 20:54

Again, what's your issue? You seem to have quoted me saying that CAIS seems to confer advantage, as if I've said the opposite. What point do you think you are making.

My point is that there are areas where we do not necessarily always draw the one at genetics. We don't insist on these individuals living socially as men in the same way many of us might think is best in other cases (ie, self id kinds of scenarios.) We probably aren't going to be concerned that the kid with this disorder is housed in the girs dorm on the school trip. etc.

We can choose to draw the line at genetics in other scenarios, medical for example. And we can argue that's best for sports too, but it's not self-evident, since we use other measures in some other situations.

There are plenty of posters here treating it as if it is self-evident that's the best course. Which is why they will get pushback sometimes from people. It's totally unnecessary as the arguments are pretty solid, it's the treating it as self-evident that tend to create a problem because then people assume individuals would also treat people with disorders like CAIS as men in all situations. Which usually isn't what they intend.

First of all, please can we keep this to sport? That's the issue here. Not social situations.

You seemed to be saying that we could not use chromosomes as the line between the sexes. I was saying we could, even with CAIS males, because they were also 46XY.

You then brought in the possibility that CAIS males might not have an advantage in the future and that might remove the justification to exclude them from female competition.
I argued that they would always have an advantage but even if they didn't, being members of the class of males was in itself enough to exclude them.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 20:54

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 15:26

However, this does suggest, if we accept it, that it is not always chromosomes that would be the final line. If we found [CAIS athletes] weren't over represented, or were under-represented, would we say that it was logical to class them as women for sporting purposes?

From the NHS website:
AIS is caused by a genetic alteration that is passed along the female line to the child.
Although people with AIS have XY (usual male pattern) chromosomes, the body does not respond to testosterone (the sex hormone) fully or at all. This prevents the sex development of a typical male.

Normal male sex chromosomes, lack of response to testosterone.

The fact that they are over represented on podiums was the proof of the advantage gained by (we assume) not having periods and being on average taller. The advantage will not change, nor will the source of it - being male. So even if they stop being over-represented on podiums, it would not mean that they had no longer had any advantage on average, or that they were no longer male, because they could be falling away for any number of reasons.

Men as a class are excluded from female competition because of male advantage - the advantage they have over women y virtue of being male. One particular group of males not having an advantage (although this particular group always will) does not justify making an exception for that one group.

Don't be mesmerised by the fact that CAIS males have a phenotype which closely resembles the female. Looking like a woman is not what makes you eligible for the female category. Being female is. CAIS males do not have female internal anatomy. The resemblance to women is purely external. They are always going to have an advantage for the reasons I've mentioned before - height and lack of periods. This is not going to change.
Jonnie Peacock's T44 Paralympic 100m times were comparable with women's times. JP would also have had male advantage, but greatly reduced by the fact that he had 1.75 legs instead of the full complement. We didn't therefore allow Jonnie Peacock into the female category. He and any CAIS athlete still belong to the class of males, not the class of females.

A CAIS athlete is just as male as Usain Bolt. They are weaker and slower than Usain Bolt. So are women, the argument runs, therefore it's reasonable to let the weakened males race with the women. It's not reasonable. The argument for allowing CAIS males into female competition is exactly the same as the argument for allowing any male in.

(It does raise some interesting questions about suppression of menstruation through drugs, whether that also is an unfair advantage by using drugs, because it's quite common now among female athletes. How far can we play with our biology before it's not fair? Does it create a situation where all elite female athletes feel obliged to do it to compete? Is that healthy?)
It may be an advantage, but it's not unfair because all of the competitors could suppress menstruation if they chose. (A male would not have to.)

I am curious to know why you are so invested in allowing this group of males into the female category, though. Obviously, we are different people, but to me it seems blindingly obvious that males should compete against males and females against females. And since everyone is either male or female, there's no need to make exceptions.

There is no corresponding opportunity for a woman to compete in men's events. Especially not a woman weakened by a DSD or other medical condition. So the inclusion would only go one way. In sport terms, males have the equivalent of a vast stately home with deer park and landscaped gardens, while women have the gatekeeper's cottage and a small kitchen garden. You are suggesting that we might give up some of our garden and a room in the cottage to male people, and I am simply trying to understand what is driving your take on this.

Again, what's your issue? You seem to have quoted me saying that CAIS seems to confer advantage, as if I've said the opposite. What point do you think you are making.

My point is that there are areas where we do not necessarily always draw the one at genetics. We don't insist on these individuals living socially as men in the same way many of us might think is best in other cases (ie, self id kinds of scenarios.) We probably aren't going to be concerned that the kid with this disorder is housed in the girs dorm on the school trip. etc.

We can choose to draw the line at genetics in other scenarios, medical for example. And we can argue that's best for sports too, but it's not self-evident, since we use other measures in some other situations.

There are plenty of posters here treating it as if it is self-evident that's the best course. Which is why they will get pushback sometimes from people. It's totally unnecessary as the arguments are pretty solid, it's the treating it as self-evident that tend to create a problem because then people assume individuals would also treat people with disorders like CAIS as men in all situations. Which usually isn't what they intend.

TempestTost · 02/08/2024 20:44

sadabouti · 02/08/2024 14:29

@TempestTost what's your personal status? Would you describe yourself as a woman with XY chromosomes.

You persist endlessly with the reality bending idea that chromosomes are not the beginning and the end of it. You keep going back to this pseudo scientific idea that men with DSDs are women because of the way they respond to testosterone, and the strength or lack thereof that their bodies may have as a result. It's all irrelevant. Some men are stronger, faster, taller, than others, it doesn't make those who are lower down this curve into women!

I am left to wonder what your real agenda is thru the never ending repetition of the misinformation that you peddle.

Learn to read, bro. Orto think about what you've read. You clearly have no fucking clue what I'm saying, so I don't see much point in having a discussion about it with you, especially showing the kind of male entitlement that thinks his opinion is the be all and end all and that he can tell off women on a feminist forum. No one needs you to barge in and tell us how things are.

Fukuraptor · 02/08/2024 18:18

As an aside, I am kind of dumbfounded that the IOC don't test for testosterone for boxers, given the history of doping in other sports. Sounds like it's open season for cheats of both sexes.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 18:13

MaidOfAle · 02/08/2024 17:55

That's quite interesting. TRAs have peddled a myth that sex verification in sport was "invasive" and "humiliating", I suspect relying on the lay public jumping to a conclusion that genital examination was involved.

It makes sense that we could actually use a cheek swab, as we test paternity that way.

Cheek swabs can fail in the rare case of chimeric individuals, but otherwise it's a reliable and dignified test for determining sex.

Also, as per a storyline in Elementary and several other crime dramas, occasional instances of DNA from stem cell or bone marrow donors showing up in the transplant recipients.

Except in the case where the transplanted cells come from the recipient or the recipient’s identical twin, all donated cells will have different DNA from that of the recipient. The recipient's DNA does no [sic] change, but after the transplant, the recipient will have two sets of DNA in their body: their own DNA is found in most of their cells, and the donor’s DNA is found in their blood and immune system cells.

https://www.giftoflife.org/posts/post/can-a-blood-stem-cell-or-marrow-transplant-change-your-dna

In Elementary, the villain happily gave a cheek swab, knowing that it would yield his own DNA, content in the knowledge that the blood evidence left at the scene would be that of his donor (a woman in this case). (Later on, when asked for a blood test, the villain refused but was compelled by a warrant etc.)

Gift of Life Marrow Registry

Gift of Life Marrow Registry answers the question about whether a stem cell or marrow donation changes the recipient's DNA. Although it does not do so, after transplant the recipient will have a small amount of donor DNA detectible by testing.

https://www.giftoflife.org/posts/post/can-a-blood-stem-cell-or-marrow-transplant-change-your-dna

MaidOfAle · 02/08/2024 17:59

@AstonScrapingsNameChange

unless it's a special 'sport' that you play with your genitals and I don't think there are any of those in the Olympics?

This made me laugh aloud. Penis ping pong? Kegel weight lifting?

MaidOfAle · 02/08/2024 17:55

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/08/2024 16:37

indeed - https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1819076377234362602

How anyone looks should not be the issue. A simple sex screening test. Took me 2 mins in 1976. Cotton bud wiped on the inside of your cheek. Female athletes voted 82% in favour of keeping it in 1996. The IOC still stopped it so why ask?

That's quite interesting. TRAs have peddled a myth that sex verification in sport was "invasive" and "humiliating", I suspect relying on the lay public jumping to a conclusion that genital examination was involved.

It makes sense that we could actually use a cheek swab, as we test paternity that way.

Cheek swabs can fail in the rare case of chimeric individuals, but otherwise it's a reliable and dignified test for determining sex.

OP posts:
Omlettes · 02/08/2024 17:45

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 02/08/2024 16:36

It's the usual BBC ideological anti women propaganda.

'There is consensus this is scientifically not a man' - says who, BBC? Please tell us. Because the international boxing association don't agree that this person who has gone through male puberty should compete with women:

https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-association-regarding-athletes-disqualifications-in-world-boxing-championships-2023/

Meanwhile the Guardian is turning.
Tim Davie and his mates are the devil

OP posts:
AstonScrapingsNameChange · 02/08/2024 17:23

Ilovetowander · 02/08/2024 16:49

I think the question is not a trans one, either a person is male or female. This case is difficult as a child clearly had more female indicators than male indicators hence at birth their gender was assigned. I am not sure what the answer is here but it is more nuanced than other cases.

I think we need to go back to first principles and first decide for what purpose it matters.

If we agree that, for safety and fairness, sport needs to be segregated by sex, we can then consider why, and how this individual fits into that framework. Of course if people don't agree, then that's a separate discussion. But assuming that we do....

Male advantage in sport is conferred by testosterone and having gone through male puberty. Testosterone can be suppressed to a degree, but doing that doesn't undo all the development male puberty delivers - that is permanent.

Has the individual met both those conditions? It appears so.

Then they should compete with the men - because coming back to first principles, they will put women at a massive disadvantage (and danger, in contact sports), just like everyone else in the male bodied category.

For the purposes of sport, ambiguous genitals are neither here nor there (unless it's a special'sport' that you play with your genitals and I don't think there are any of those in the Olympics?)

Floisme · 02/08/2024 17:18

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/08/2024 16:37

indeed - https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1819076377234362602

How anyone looks should not be the issue. A simple sex screening test. Took me 2 mins in 1976. Cotton bud wiped on the inside of your cheek. Female athletes voted 82% in favour of keeping it in 1996. The IOC still stopped it so why ask?

One can only wonder what the motivation might have been for doing away with a non-invasive test that a large majority of female athletes wanted to keep.

Ilovetowander · 02/08/2024 16:49

I think the question is not a trans one, either a person is male or female. This case is difficult as a child clearly had more female indicators than male indicators hence at birth their gender was assigned. I am not sure what the answer is here but it is more nuanced than other cases.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 02/08/2024 16:38

It's just more bs obfuscation. Pretending that is really difficult and intrusive to determine a person's sex, when it's not.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 02/08/2024 16:37

Floisme · 02/08/2024 16:30

If only there were some kind of test the IOC could do to settle this.
Oh.

indeed - https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1819076377234362602

How anyone looks should not be the issue. A simple sex screening test. Took me 2 mins in 1976. Cotton bud wiped on the inside of your cheek. Female athletes voted 82% in favour of keeping it in 1996. The IOC still stopped it so why ask?

x.com

https://x.com/sharrond62/status/1819076377234362602

Floisme · 02/08/2024 16:30

If only there were some kind of test the IOC could do to settle this.
Oh.

Snowypeaks · 02/08/2024 16:28

A lot of that is incorrect. Where is it from?

LightFull · 02/08/2024 16:19

The rest

I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
LightFull · 02/08/2024 16:19

Some insight

I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
I have never felt a punch like this’ – Carini
StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 02/08/2024 16:12

It's exposed a substantial gap in the general public understanding of science.

It's like women who don't want to lift even a 5kg weight because they're convinced they'll look like Schwarzenegger. No understanding of the role of testosterone or just how much training women have to put in to developing muscle and being able to use it in the relative lack of this remarkable hormone.