Natalie Bird vs Lib Dems case in court August 2024

Emma Walker is the Times' lawyer of the week:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/f9c2a034-dd59-4c7f-b223-7822722314d0?shareToken=b09e99486bdea6805df32391d4781f0e

I cant remember which case - but the crowdfunder issue was raised before and the judge refused to reduce costs because of it. That may have been Alison Bailey's case. There is precedent for ignoring the source of funds. I think Naomi Cunningham would know if it wasnt Alison Bailey.

That's hilarious.

the trans MP isn’t actually a woman but just doing it to avoid traffic convictions… They really need to figure out what their argument actually is.

So, acceptance without exception, unless a member of the sacred caste that knows? In the same way that Layla Moran can see people's auras or souls, assess their threat level and their true gender? (That last bit, I'm unclear if pansexuals like Moran have a stance on gender.)

They are so cross they’ve resorted to denying someone is the gender they say they are, which surely is contradictory to their whole argument?! 🤷‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

I thought the consensus was that no one would pretend to be a woman if they weren’t really a woman but here we are, with accusations that the trans MP isn’t actually a woman but just doing it to avoid traffic convictions… They really need to figure out what their argument actually is.

I read some of the TT yesterday. She or those who were advising her did not come across well. Complete refusal to engage in settlement discussions in good faith, for one. I think there was something about trying to insist on the LD paying damages to all GC women, something along those lines. It all came across as blisteringly juvenile (on her part) and / or unprofessional on the part of her advisers.
The crowd funding part is interesting though. An award of costs is intended to be compensatory so there is an proper basis for saying she can't recover from the LD sums where she isn't out of pocket because the crowd funding has already covered it. Who would that 88k go to if the LD paid it - her sols can't be paid twice and she's not going to refund her backers. I can't believe there's no precedent though what with the Grift Law Project et al.

Costs that cover crowdfunders would be a handy judgement to have, seeing as how the other side love to run up unnecessary expenses with endless paperwork and woeful preparation (thinking of the terrible bundles in Alison Bailey’s case here, but many others too).

Pretty sure most online crowdfunders can be refunded with a few clicks, once the losers have paid it back.

Then individual funders can redirect their money wherever they see fit (usually several worthy crowdfunders going on at any one time).

Losing Entities shouldn’t be able to get away without paying all the costs awarded just because the costs were fronted by hundreds of individuals chucking in a tenner or two, rather than one individual.

Ooh the lads are angry.

for peaking purposes: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5248343-unreasonably-pleased-libdems-have-had-to-pay-out-ps14000-for-discriminating-against-a-womans-belief-that-sex-matters

Reddit normally do delete violent rhetoric, I've got plenty of the right side of history's violent posts deleted before (because they can't help themselves) so it's worth a report.

At lest one Redditor calls on her to "fucking die"
https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1hwroy0/lib_dems_forced_to_pay_14000_to_former_candidate/

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1877097468015308968.html

I've copied and pasted from thread reader.
She was treated terribly.

There is some information still been spread by transactivists and their allies that needs to be countered and corrected publicly.
I was selected as candidate for Wakefield local party then two days later attended a English Council meeting in Birmingham.
The meeting involved a talk by Helen Belcher and Baroness Barker around 'Trans Rights'. No woman offering alternative viewpoints was on the panel.
Baroness Barker, Helen Belcher and other Stonewall transactivists have completely captured the internal structures of the party.
I arrived at the meeting in Birmingham. I put my coat in the cloakroom and got tea before the meeting.
The t-shirt was always on show,I didn't hide it and it certainly wasn't hostile or aggressive.
Helen was watching my every move and frantically texting people during this time.
I took my place at the meeting and listened quietly and respectfully to all points made.
I believed that a woman should have also have been on the panel providing alternative viewpoints particularly around the 'we just want to pee in peace' .
When it came to lunchtime I joined the sandwich queue with everyone else and got my sandwiches and coffee.
I spoke to a lovely gentleman whilst eating my lunch and we discussed #FreedomOfSpeech and that it was concerning that a supposedly 'liberal party' was only allowing 1 view.
The climate both internally and externally on this topic in late 2017/ early 2018 shouldn't be underestimated particularly in a party where half of the @stonewalluk transactivists are in charge on the LGBTQ faction and settling policies.
Anyway I quietly ate my lunch Nd had a lovely calm discussion until I was accosted by Prue Bray who barked at me 'why are you wearing that t-shirt?'
My response was that the party needs to have a discussion on this topic.
She then asked if I was an Approved candidate,I said I was. Her response 'we'll see about that then won't we'.
It further transpired in investigation reports against me after the meeting that numerous people had been taking covert photos of me in the t-shirt.
Not one of these people approached me for a civilised, adult discussion around the t-shirt.
The @LibDems have always supported protests, mine was a silent protest.i was disrespectful or hateful to any trans person.
I was concerned at the amount of English Council members at the meeting pledging allegiance to their 'trans sisters' to me it seemed sinister and cult like.
The problem with associations such as the @LibDems is that the party is like a family, in this case a dysfunctional one, it is filled with activists who frequently attend dinners with each other, and bold the same party roles.
In such climate it's easy for 'groupthink' to develop
The @LibDems has an unusually high no of transactivists within the party who are everyone's friends.
A culture has developed where people are scared of upsetting their friends.
The function of political party is to develop good policies for the country, not to stop discussion
because our friend may be upset.
After the first complaints were dismissed I was told very clearly to shut up on the topic.
I did not, I refused to do so.
Why could the transactivists pursue things they were passionate about but I couldn't?
The climate in early 2018 can't be underestimated.
I reached out to Paddy Ashdown, he refused to help and removed me as judge on his prize for 'radical' thinking.
The transactivists were his friends as well. He didn't want to upset them either.
The suspension letter came through on Monday, it hadn't come through though by the time I'd driven down to Wakefield to start campaigning.
Peter Williams told me he had the letter and that I couldn't be part of the meeting.
When I did discuss my points of concern with Peter Williams a few days later, he agreed with every point, particularly the violent man being in women's prisons.
He was worried I was being targeted, he wrote to @LibDems HQ setting out his concerns.
The letter along with my complaint disappeared into a black hole in HQ. Neither it not the complaints appeared in the evidence bundle.
The party had already decided that an excessive punishment was needed to get this northern woman to just shut up on this topic.
The excessive punishment and suspensions were to silence me, and not just silence me but to silence anyone else in the party who may wish to raise this.
I don't understand why they suspended me indefinitely but didn't outright expel me.
In late 2017/ early 2018 no other prospective parliamentary candidate in any political party or any MP had dared to speak up on this topic. It was an unspeakable topic. We couldn't say the unsayable and the narrative being promoted was the @stonewalluk party line.

The behaviour that Natalie describes is replicated across so many institutions. It's what #nodebate looks like in real life 😡

Thread from Natalie:

https://x.com/Nat_freespeech/status/1877097468015308968?t=Ar2h00FJIciF_XH28G9uKw&s=19

Ah I can edit posts to correct mistakes how useful

Link sorry
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6272x8q1x3o

From BBC yesterday Natalie has been awarded £14000

The latest article in the Times

https://archive.ph/8QaQf

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/law/article/ex-candidate-lib-dems-natalie-bird-damages-feminist-p0lm9m6b8

Today in court there was a costs order submitted by the defendant (Lib Dems) for the claimant not following procedure to resolve the matter, that was partially granted, but was reduced significantly. I think it was agreed at 2k, which would offset any damages paid out to Natalie by the Lib Dems (there will be some, but they are arguing about how much is appropriate)

After that the judgment and costs hearing was adjourned to early January;

NR - I was surprised by how long submissions have taken.
J - the procedural matters are what took up the time.
NR - I think we need at least a day
J - say we start at 10 am, and allow an hour for judgment, then 45 minutes for costs for both sides,
EW - that's very tight
J - then we need time for the judgement, how about 4 hours? It seems proportionate to me. Thank you very much to both for your participation and help on the technical matters. I am not and will not express any views on the merits of Ms Bird's views. And should not
interpreted as endorsing or opposing her views.
I need a list of dates that you are jointly available.
NR - what period?
J - January as we only 3 days until the Christmas break. Shall we say from 6 January, as many dates as possible. Bear in mind that I'm supposed to give
judgment within 3 months. No one wants this to drag on. It's a disciplinary matter if it drags on. Please give me as many dates as possible.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1868958005833969904.html

Ouch, the morning's reading is uncomfortable.

Thanks for update 🙂
I hope she gets the biggest payout possible!