Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miriam Cates

282 replies

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 23:54

New report says she was trustee at a church while gay conversion therapy was happening. The kind of conversion therapy that involves exorcism of demons.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngprp5xdvo

As a director and trustee at the charity behind the church, external from September 2016 to September 2018, Mrs Cates, had safeguarding responsibilities for those who attended

Thought this might interest some posters on here. Not sure I would trust her with safeguarding after this, if indeed she retains her seat.

A close-up of former MP Miriam Cates

Miriam Cates: Tory candidate was trustee of church that ‘endorsed’ conversion therapy

A report finds St Thomas Philadelphia church in Sheffield had "supported" conversion therapy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngprp5xdvo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
LaundryOnTheLine · 02/07/2024 18:24

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

LaundryOnTheLine · 02/07/2024 18:22

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 18:19

FOJN · 02/07/2024 18:12

CassieMaddox

One person made a formal complaint, in 2019, about being subjected to conversion therapy practices. The complaint was upheld after the CofE instructed Barnardo's to carry out a full independent investigation. Another person reports being given a book which talked about "deliverance from homosexuality".

Miriam Cates left the Church in 2018 and nowhere in the BBC report does it say she was aware of the practices reported.

She is clear about her opposition of gay conversion therapy. As someone who claims to be GC you must know why many of us were concerned about the conversion therapy ban. Gender questioning minors who are supported through puberty but do not receive "gender affirming care" and many of the detransitioners are same sex attracted.

A poorly thought out conversion therapy bill which included trans people could easily have been a charter for gay conversion therapy. No one agrees with conversion therapy but the law needed to be very specific about what qualified as conversion therapy for gender questioning minors to makes sure that talking therapy was not criminalised.

I'm not sure what her views on abortion have to do with conversion therapy.

Edited

The transgender conversion therapy ban is nothing to do with this. Except that if Miriam Cates thinks Christian homosexual conversion practices are necessary, then there is an added incentive for her to vote against the conversion therapy bill (using GC concerns as a figleaf for homophobia).

You are right that there is nothing in the report to prove she knew about it and condoned it. But it is clear she should have done given the period they are talking about and her role. So either she condoned it or she's incompetent at safeguarding. Neither are particularly good.

I don't think you would be dismissing this if this was an equivalent story about organisations encouraging transition.

The only thing her views/activism on abortion have to do with it are indicating she's not a friend of women. As if she was, she'd support women's bodily autonomy regardless of her own beliefs.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 18:13

First para of the report:
"Safeguarding all children and adults and protecting them from harm is everyone’s responsibility, and all organisations, including church and faith communities have an important role to play in addressing these responsibilities. Charity trustees are responsible for ensuring that those benefitting from, or working with or on behalf of their charity, are not harmed in any way through
their contact with it.
"

That's why this is a news story.

OP posts:
FOJN · 02/07/2024 18:12

CassieMaddox

One person made a formal complaint, in 2019, about being subjected to conversion therapy practices. The complaint was upheld after the CofE instructed Barnardo's to carry out a full independent investigation. Another person reports being given a book which talked about "deliverance from homosexuality".

Miriam Cates left the Church in 2018 and nowhere in the BBC report does it say she was aware of the practices reported.

She is clear about her opposition of gay conversion therapy. As someone who claims to be GC you must know why many of us were concerned about the conversion therapy ban. Gender questioning minors who are supported through puberty but do not receive "gender affirming care" and many of the detransitioners are same sex attracted.

A poorly thought out conversion therapy bill which included trans people could easily have been a charter for gay conversion therapy. No one agrees with conversion therapy but the law needed to be very specific about what qualified as conversion therapy for gender questioning minors to makes sure that talking therapy was not criminalised.

I'm not sure what her views on abortion have to do with conversion therapy.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 18:09

Is this a purity spiral? Or "guild by association"?
The diocese asked Barnardos to investigate, not me. This is the result of the investigation. Interesting you are ignoring it because you don't like what it says.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 18:07

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 18:00

His complaint, which Miriam Cates said she was never made aware of, was not formally submitted until November 2019 after she had left the church.

What straws? The BBC is no longer an unbiased news source. It covers this but not Wpath which is a far bigger and more horrifying news story about a medical scandal. You're dead right the BBC have challenged my values by completely abandoning journalistic ethics and impartiality.

Not one article on Wpath, not one. Perhaps you need to remove those blinkers.

This is very black and white Confused
I don't discount a whole news provider just because they aren't reporting on what I've decided they should. But you do you.

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 18:00

His complaint, which Miriam Cates said she was never made aware of, was not formally submitted until November 2019 after she had left the church.

What straws? The BBC is no longer an unbiased news source. It covers this but not Wpath which is a far bigger and more horrifying news story about a medical scandal. You're dead right the BBC have challenged my values by completely abandoning journalistic ethics and impartiality.

Not one article on Wpath, not one. Perhaps you need to remove those blinkers.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 17:23

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 16:56

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-bbcs-miriam-cates-hit-job-doesnt-add-up/

The BBC should put its own house in order. This is a blatant smear job. It deserves nothing but contempt. And please don't try to draw any conclusions on my view of conversion therapy or on Miriam Cates. I see the report was leaked to the BBC. Good job the Wpath files weren't leaked to them, they wouldn't have seen the light of day. Funny still no reporting on that.

The Barnardo's report, which was a result of Sheffield Diocese investigating the allegations, was leaked to the BBC yesterday after the diocese sat on it for months.
They then reported it. Hardly a "hit job". It's called "journalism". And you are clutching at straws because the findings challenge your values somehow.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 17:21

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 16:53

Your thread is about a church in which a young man with an extreme Christian upbringing underwent prayers or a ritual at a church, against his being gay, which he described both as ‘an intense prayer team meeting’ and then, an exorcism, though the church denied that it was an exorcism.

He was a young adult at the time, a youth leader in the church. He was not forced into this prayer session or exorcism except by his own beliefs that it was wrong to be gay, which he had been brought up in by his own family who were part of an ‘extreme Christian cult’. Mistaken though many people would think those beliefs are some people hold them.

After what he went through, he felt empty at first but then concluded he could be gay and still hold on to his faith, though this church did not want him in his role there because he was in a gay relationship.
There are Christian Churches where the leaders believe it is against the teachings of the Bible to be gay.

This happened two years before Miriam Cates was there so there is no point in suggesting her safeguarding of this man fell short.

As to any implication she believes in converting gay people through prayer, either because she attended this church or was a trustee there two years after what this man described happening to him, there isn’t any evidence one way or another.

There is evidence though that she is against making young gay people believe that being gay means they are really trans and should undergo harmful practices in order to change.

Wilfully ignoring the report that says the conversion practices happened between 2014 and 2019, while Cates was a trustee.

Minimising what was done to that man in a similar way to TRAs minimising social contagion or the impact of LGBT groups on culture.

Letting Cates off the hook for safeguarding where you wouldn't give the same latitude to a head teacher or leader of an NHS Trust.

Very interesting to see the double standards at play.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 17:08

I see the report was leaked to the BBC

It is odd, as it is old news being resurrected.

I was thinking of the poster earlier who wisely, in my view, said that religion is about converting away from one state towards a [believed to be] better one.

Baptism is a sort of conversion practice away from Original Sin carried out in churches on babies, brought to the font even by non-believers, where the participants are asked, “Do you renounce the devil?”, and they respond loudly and clearly, “Yes, I do!” What a rite of exorcism that is.

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 16:56

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-bbcs-miriam-cates-hit-job-doesnt-add-up/

The BBC should put its own house in order. This is a blatant smear job. It deserves nothing but contempt. And please don't try to draw any conclusions on my view of conversion therapy or on Miriam Cates. I see the report was leaked to the BBC. Good job the Wpath files weren't leaked to them, they wouldn't have seen the light of day. Funny still no reporting on that.

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 16:53

Your thread is about a church in which a young man with an extreme Christian upbringing underwent prayers or a ritual at a church, against his being gay, which he described both as ‘an intense prayer team meeting’ and then, an exorcism, though the church denied that it was an exorcism.

He was a young adult at the time, a youth leader in the church. He was not forced into this prayer session or exorcism except by his own beliefs that it was wrong to be gay, which he had been brought up in by his own family who were part of an ‘extreme Christian cult’. Mistaken though many people would think those beliefs are some people hold them.

After what he went through, he felt empty at first but then concluded he could be gay and still hold on to his faith, though this church did not want him in his role there because he was in a gay relationship.
There are Christian Churches where the leaders believe it is against the teachings of the Bible to be gay.

This happened two years before Miriam Cates was there so there is no point in suggesting her safeguarding of this man fell short.

As to any implication she believes in converting gay people through prayer, either because she attended this church or was a trustee there two years after what this man described happening to him, there isn’t any evidence one way or another.

There is evidence though that she is against making young gay people believe that being gay means they are really trans and should undergo harmful practices in order to change.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 16:26

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 02/07/2024 16:22

This doesn’t seem like a good faith conversation.

Or is this just the typical left wing convolution point scoring way of ‘discussing’?

It feels as though you aren’t interested in anything except a witch trial for Miriam Cates.

I’m not active in political circles. I do find it an odd way to have a conversation. I know some labour councillors and it’s like they have a handy phrase book of gotchas to drop into every conversation.
The conservative ones I know don’t tend to do that. I mean, they have other flaws, but not that one.

I was expecting a certain amount of engagement, not flat denial.

And (as usual) I haven't called anyone names, bad faith, amplifying TRA talking points etc.

Write it off as "lefty" if you like. Your choice.

OP posts:
KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 02/07/2024 16:22

This doesn’t seem like a good faith conversation.

Or is this just the typical left wing convolution point scoring way of ‘discussing’?

It feels as though you aren’t interested in anything except a witch trial for Miriam Cates.

I’m not active in political circles. I do find it an odd way to have a conversation. I know some labour councillors and it’s like they have a handy phrase book of gotchas to drop into every conversation.
The conservative ones I know don’t tend to do that. I mean, they have other flaws, but not that one.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:42

UtilitarianNameChange · 02/07/2024 15:15

You are the one doing the conflating!

Religion/religious practice is not and has never been ‘therapy’.

I'm using a widely accepted term, not conflating anything.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56496423.amp

Again, why do you want to take away accepted language that gay people use to describe their experiences?

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:39

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 15:29

It seems your thread is only about churches
who pray over gay men then. It is worth remembering though that if they attend a church like that, they probably asked to be prayed for; (though it would be very bad if parents made possibly gay children be prayed over imo).

I am not sure how widespread trying to pray away gay is as a form of conversion is, but I think that, clearly, transing gay away has become more and more widespread.

I wonder who has more power in converting gay and lesbian young people, God or Mermaids?

It is a relevant question because Miriam Cate’s apparent connection to the church’s version of conversion therapy was only brought up by tras because of her fighting against Mermaid’s version of it.

My thread is about a specific church that Miriam Cates was trustee of, allowing conversion therapy. With the resulting observation that Cates failed in her safeguarding responsibilities.

It's not about churches generally. It certainly isn't about "trans conversion therapy" or mermaids. It is about a very specific topic.

OP posts:
CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:36

UtilitarianNameChange · 02/07/2024 15:16

You are bringing TRA talking points to the board again.

It’s tedious.

Hmm. I'm "bringing" a topical news story about a prominent GC politician.
Are you saying we can't discuss certain topics on here because TRAs might also discuss them? That doesn't seem very pro freedom of speech. It also seems like nothing would ever get discussed as TRAs are probably discussing many of the issues on here too.

Or are you saying there are certain people who we cannot criticise because the TRAs also criticise them? Only certain position are permitted?

I'm very unclear what you mean but it sounds very much like "la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"

OP posts:
Alwaystired94 · 02/07/2024 15:32

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

As long as those Children don't need an abortion in future

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 15:29

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:11

Just because I'm anti homosexual conversion therapy doesn't mean I'm pro mermaids. Honestly. You can be anti both things.

This is nothing to do with trans issues. Its to do with regressive, harmful, anti gay practices in a church, and the lack of appropriate safeguarding.

It seems your thread is only about churches
who pray over gay men then. It is worth remembering though that if they attend a church like that, they probably asked to be prayed for; (though it would be very bad if parents made possibly gay children be prayed over imo).

I am not sure how widespread trying to pray away gay is as a form of conversion is, but I think that, clearly, transing gay away has become more and more widespread.

I wonder who has more power in converting gay and lesbian young people, God or Mermaids?

It is a relevant question because Miriam Cate’s apparent connection to the church’s version of conversion therapy was only brought up by tras because of her fighting against Mermaid’s version of it.

UtilitarianNameChange · 02/07/2024 15:16

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:06

Yes. But in this case we are talking about its original meaning not the version including gender. So I'm not perpetuating anything.
I'm pretty sad FWR doesn't want to discuss an issue impacting same sex attracted people.

You are bringing TRA talking points to the board again.

It’s tedious.

UtilitarianNameChange · 02/07/2024 15:15

You are the one doing the conflating!

Religion/religious practice is not and has never been ‘therapy’.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 15:11

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 14:41

@CassieMaddox · Today 13:43

"Conversion therapy" is an accepted term for a load of practices aiming to change someone's sexuality. It's nothing to do with "mental health practice". Why would you want to take away the words to talk about how gay people are abused?

You are seeing things the wrong way round imo.

If you want to see how a gay young person might be abused, by a ‘ban’ on conversion therapy, read this by a gay man and a lawyer, Denis Kavanagh, of the Gay Men’s Network, who writes very clearly and eloquently about it.

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/6200252604e9795287de2ada/t/6671b5cc373b6025fffcbbec/1718728141412/GMN+Labour+Party+Manifesto+Response+2024+Branded+V2.pdf

Miriam Cates brought up the harm Mermaids was causing young people during PMQs in 2022. Did you know the founder of Mermaids had a possibly gay son whose feminine tastes repelled his father? They took him to be castrated abroad when he was sixteen. ( MC did not bring this personal story up however - just the harm of binders, puberty blockers, and the pathway to surgeries and some other points see clip posted previously .)

No praying could have ever been more designed to ‘convert’ than what happened to that boy, or others like him, nor any prayers competed and won against those parents in a harm-done competition.

This MC story was originally brought out by tras in 2022 because she dared to bring Mermaids into public scrutiny during PMQs.

Just because I'm anti homosexual conversion therapy doesn't mean I'm pro mermaids. Honestly. You can be anti both things.

This is nothing to do with trans issues. Its to do with regressive, harmful, anti gay practices in a church, and the lack of appropriate safeguarding.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread